What should be done in response to the White Power gesture being flashed on camera?

In My Humble Opinion
61

You stated that there would be no reason to flash the symbol in front of a camera. It seemed to me that you concluded this must have something to do with white supremacy because it makes no sense to play the circle game by flashing the circle on camera.
I disagreed with you. I said that people in the military have been playing the circle game for years, and flashing the circle on camera long before it was ever a “racist thing”. The 2013 picture supports my assertion.
You mention how the symbol has “changed” since then. I would agree that in some circles (pun intended) that might be true. But within the military it has always been and continues to be about a game.

That’s not a common belief in the Army. I’ve yet to meet a single white supremacist in the military. I don’t doubt there might be a few. But It’s a bit hard for such people to stay hidden for long. Considering the percentage of blacks in the Army is greater than the percentage in the general population, and the percentage of blacks among the senior enlisted and commissioned officer positions in the Army are greater than in the general population, a white supremacist is more likely to have a black boss in the Army than as a civilian, not to mention their potential coworkers. It’s not really a welcoming place for their ideologies. The Army has zero tolerance for any kind of racist view, attitude, statement or conduct whatsoever.

62

Also, the “White Power” symbol has the finger tips skyward with the palm toward the observer, like a traditional “okay” symbol. It forms a W-P. The circle game symbol has the fingers downward and palm toward the maker. They’re not even the same symbol.

63

Why couldn’t a white supremacist have a black boss? More fodder for anger and resentment.

I think most white supremacists are pretty good at keeping quiet about their beliefs in polite company, though I also think they think deep down inside, most white people agree with them but are too beta to say so. But these last few years have shown us they are out there, in real numbers, and they are winding each other up. You really think its inappropriate to even investigate this?

64

Agreed.

There’s a reason why people actually stand up and vocally express their Oaths when enlisting.

You don’t want to adhere to the Oaths you swore, and behave in a manner befitting your uniform? That’s okay.

Get the fuck out of the armed forces. :mad:

Yeah well, that’s not nearly the least of the obscenities he vomits forth at people.

65

It’s a “made you look” type of game. He just made a bunch of people look. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

66

The military became integrated well before schools and businesses and such, around 1948 I think under Eisenhower. If anything the military has better race relations by and large than the civilian world, because you are forced to interact with people that are different than you and if you don’t like it you just have to suck it up.

I was in the Army at least where I was stationed it seemed about a third white, a third black, and a third Hispanic with maybe a small numerical edge to the white people. I also never saw so many interracial relationships and biracial children as I did in the military so again are there racists in the military, absolutely but I think you’ll find it’s probably less than the civilian world. And believe me if you are spouting off racist shit, people will get in your face or just punch you pretty quick.

67

Unfortunately, I can’t read the article. The New York Times uses a paywall that actually works in private mode, and it seems to perennially think I’ve used up all my monthly articles. However, I did find the image on Snopes.

And, just like every version I’ve seen, that clearly is not the circle game. The whole point of the circle game is that you make the symbol just below someone’s eyeline. If you see them looking down at it, then you get to punch them. This doesn’t work if there’s something else they could be looking at, and it doesn’t work if there’s no one you could see looking.
And these variations matter. They are necessary for a secret symbol to function. It must look like it could be an innocuous symbol, but have something about it that is telling to those in the know. Otherwise, they can’t know that this person is safe to go and talk about the secret subject with.

There’s a reason they are starting to say it is the circle game instead of the OK sign. It’s already been shown that you don’t hold the symbol in that way to say OK, so they stopped being able to pretend it was that particular innocuous symbol. So they now say it’s really the circle game.

There is also no chance that this was done on accident–young people know what it means now. And it is irrelevant if they were trolling, as you can only troll using a racist symbol if you are racist. Would you claim a troll who says the n-word isn’t racist? Of course they are–they clearly want to piss off black people. What’s more, giving a trolling exception to bigotry is not in our best interest, same as if they say they were “just joking.” Then any racist could get away with it by claiming they were trolling.

It also bring disrepute on the group to be thought of as possibly racist. Trolling still disrespects the military, and thus I expect that there will be punishment.

Oh, and I remind people who rant about how everyone is so offended these days–what you are expressing is that you are offended. Everything applies to you. The better solution is to stop freaking out if other people are offended, and instead listen to their concerns. People express high levels of offense because it’s the only thing that works to get attention to their concerns.

And, no, the solution is not ignoring them, as it just escalates the situation. That’s also the main reason DNFTT doesn’t work–trolls who are ignored will just up the ante until someone takes the bait.

68

Maybe. I admit I don’t really know much about how white supremacists operate. But I know soldiers. And I know immature young LTs and cadets. This wasn’t a racist gesture or a “fake racist” trolling gesture. It’s just a dumb ass cadet being juvenile and immature on camera.
And at any rate, I can also tell the difference between what people are calling the WP symbol and what is and has always been the circle game. They’re not even the same gesture.

With all that said, I wouldn’t be against any level of punishment decided upon by the USMA faculty. Even though it’s not racist, it’s still unprofessional and unbecoming. If they are kicked out of West Point, I wouldn’t bat an eye.

69

No, the problem is that we understand the game quite well. The game only works if you can see someone looking at it, and then get to punch them.

You can’t see them look if it’s a photo, and you can’t punch them. The only way it would show up in a photo is if someone was doing it to someone else who was there.

It’s also deliberately supposed to be kinda secret. Posting where everyone sees it ruins the game.

They couldn’t sell it as the OK sign, as people know that you hold that high and proud, face up and gesture with your face. So now they are trying to sell it as the circle game–because fewer people know about that game.

But those who do know that explanation is just as bullshit as the other.

70

I’ve already explained twice how this is an incorrect assessment of how the “game” is currently played. I even posted a picture of someone “playing” it. How do you explain the photo I posted if it “doesn’t work if there’s no one you could see looking”.

Also, nobody gets punched. It’s all about just tricking people into accidentally seeing the symbol. That’s all there is to it. It doesn’t really matter if you’re there to witness each and every person you “got”. Nobody is keeping score.

71

Except that I showed you someone playing it exactly in this manner. In a photo. Or is it your opinion that it’s the first WP symbol caught on camera from 7 years ago, several years before anyone affiliated it with WP.

72

No it doesn’t. On what do you base that statement?

73

Seriously. It’s quite simple.

74

Here is another cite for you, BigT:

From dictionary.com
“Pictures of people making the circle with their hand, particularly as a way to photobomb an otherwise serious photograph, are often accompanied by the phrase got ‘em or simply gotem, meaning that the circling hand has “got” whoever is looking at it. Not surprisingly, the popularity of the Circle Game and “got ‘em” has been commercialized to sell t-shirts and coffee mugs.”
Circle Game Meaning & Origin | Slang by Dictionary.com

75

Not directed at me, but yes, it does. From the Military Times:

The article goes on to say ,

US military leadership recognizes white supremacy as a dangerous and abhorrent element within the ranks, one that’s extremely difficult to screen for. If it weren’t, the military would have done so already. Seems to me that those of us who respect the military would do it a service by acknowledging the issue and the problems it presents.

76

The DHS—military service is a launching pad for white supremacist terrorism

Reports by —

The Week — https://theweek.com/articles/833960/american-militarys-extremist-problem

The Military Times—

Pacific Standard magazine—
https://psmag.com/social-justice/does-the-american-military-have-a-problem-with-far-right-extremism

A column by a former assistant secretary of Homeland Security —

The New York Times—

A column by a retired Army colonel—

The military, like the police, were built upon white suprematist principles. The U.S. Army was the first government-sanctioned racial death squad in the Americas.

Since the 19th century, gestures have been made towards fighting white supremacy, and perhaps a lot of progress has been made, but as the sanctioned lethal wings of a white supremacist society, the military and police have always coddled white supremacists until the problem became too obvious.

77

What I want to know is at what point does it become reasonable for us to conclude that people who make this gesture are doing so with bad intentions?

78

When the bad meaning has become understood.

When did it become valid to assume that display of a swastika was meant with bad intent?

79

Bunny ears were the thing of my youth. As lame as it was, the humor behind it was self-evident: give the unsuspecting person beside you bunny ears so that they look funny when the picture is developed.

I don’t get how this circle hand thing is supposed to work as a game on camera. So you make the gesture, someone takes a picture, and then…congratulations, you look like a juvenile idiot? You making me look at your silly little hand is not substantially different than me looking at your silly face.

80

Exactly. When people are looking for offense they will always find it.

I’d rather have freedom of speech and freedom of expression than letting the most vocal and shrill dictate how to behave to have a society free from offense.