What should I expect from people?

[sunstone]

Excal…well said!

I’ve found the same peace of mind when I just let others be themselves as much as possible, and enjoy the areas that we share.

[Red_Stilettos]

trandallt,
Two things came to mind when I read the OP-

First, I doubt that your standards are as straight forward as you have outlined them. You seem like a very reasoned, rigorous person and you have chosen to maintain a relationship with this girl. So, I suspect (and you have previously stated) that she’s pretty even keeled most of the time. So for her to say that your standards are unreasonable, they just can’t be as plain as you say. It just doesn’t fit. My hunch is that you define manipulation pretty broadly and can be quick to dismiss someone. People make mistakes and deserve second chances. Not all of the time, but a good portion of it.

Second (and this has already been touched on), she probably feels judged by you. Whether it’s for the illogical beliefs or for maintaining friendships with people you dislike, she knows that you are factoring that into your approval of her. With your relationship history, it’s obvious that you mean alot to each other. No one likes to think that someone they respect feels anything but respect for them. I doubt she gets that from you. She’s just looking the other way, giving you the benefit of the doubt and forgiving your transgressions against her. Maybe you should pay attention.

[astro]

What LSLguy said. This finger ticking off of “don’t manipulate, lie etc” is often done by emotionally brittle, and extremely literal, people who have hard time dealing with the normal in and out of relationships, and the fuzzy boundaries that define normal interpersonal negotiations and strategies. These types of people have a huge penchant to feel betrayed, let down or “manipulated” if things don’t go just the way they expect, and are in general a pain to deal with, because they are always searching for the next presumed “lie, betrayal or manipulation” in their relationships, which becomes self fulfulling prophecy in many cases as people eventually scramble to get away from them.

“Sigh… lied to/betrayed/manipulated again”

[Contrapuntal]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I appreciate the time that went into making them. I will respond to a few of them when I have more time. However, it appears that I was unclear in the OP, and although I tried to clear it up in post 34 it remains unclear, so let me state it as clearly as I can–

I have a wonderful relationship with this woman. None of my three principles were meant to pertain to her specifically. I am aware of the subjects that we cannot talk about and the idea of expectations is one them; hence my posting in the first place. I do not browbeat her, or bully her, or say the same thing over and over, or start fights, or anything else. If I could talk to her about this topic I would. Recently she said to me again “your standards are too high” but I did not rise to the bait. (Actually she said it as she was leaving the room so there was no chance to rise to the bait.)

Anyway, knowing I cannot talk to her about it, and having few friends who care to engage in serious discussions about anything, I turned to the SDMB, which in my brief experience seems to be a great place to kick ideas back and forth. My OP was meant to ask “In general, concerning people whom I encounter in the world, is it too much to ask that they not lie to me, or manipulate me, or cheat/steal from me?” I really was not even asking what an appropiate response would, only whether it is too much to ask.

Again, I have nothing but love, respect and admiration for my friend. I am sure that my offenses against her far outnumber hers against me; and I assure you that the thought of hurting her is anathema to me. In fact, she can nearly bring me to tears at the hint of such a thing.

[Contrapuntal]

As for her saying that logic can’t explain everything, she’s kind of right. Near as I can tell, we still don’t know how and why aspirin does what it does. We just know that it works. My dad had bypass surgery several years ago after a series of mini-heart attacks that left him with a sizable dead area in one chamber. The surgeon was concerned it would just crumble when they touched it. By all the rules of science and logic and reason, he should have been wheeled out of that OR with a sheet over his head and a tag on his toe. Instead, he walked out that hospital five days later and was doing just fine when I talked to him on the phone yesterday. That’s how medicine is sometimes–people recover for no reason, and sometimes they die for no reason.

I see nothing illogical about not knowing why aspirin works and knowing that it does work. We know that it works because it has been proven in countless tests and practical applications. Homeopathy has failed those tests every time.

I doubt that anyone has ever recovered for no reason or died for no reason. No known reason, perhaps. How this validates “alternative” medicine is unclear to me.

[Contrapuntal]

Oops. Above qoute was from CrazyCatLady.

[Red_Stilettos]

trandallt , why do you want to have this conversation with her? From your posts here, you seem quite content with your standards and she seems to be, at the least, accepting of them or she wouldn’t hang around. Obviously, you two don’t agree, so why start the discussion?

Also, I was never questioning your loyalty to her, just offering an opinion on how she might be feeling.

One more thing, if you are really dead set on her hearing you out on this, write it down. I’ve always found that difficult conversations are best started on paper. It allows you to get past the initial reactions to the real meat of the issue. Then, you can talk about it.

[Contrapuntal]

Thanks for the well reasoned response. I assure you it was appreciated and that I took no offense whatsoever. I do have a couple of responses.

[QUOTE]

@Excalibre

Nevertheless, the recipient of this explanation feels judged. Your friend’s actions suggest to me that she feels that you’re judging her, and she doesn’t want to hear it. I used to get the same thing from time to time - and through the years, I taught myself to actively shut up in some situations. It’s made me able to interact with people who are quite different from me, even though in the past, someone who believed in astrology, or homeopathic medicine, or any number of other things, would have driven me nuts.

I’m sure she does feel judged. That is why we never have these conversations any more, and why I came to the SDMB for ideas.

In the end, does it hurt you if she uses homeopathic medicine? Will her purchase of homeopathic medicine be the deciding factor in its continued existence?

It does not hurt me if she uses homeopathic medicine. It will not be the deciding factor in its continued existence. I believe strongly, however, that it is morally wrong to support in any way an industry that preys on people’s fears and sells them worthless junk for the sake of profit. (Principle 3)

Besides, logically-minded people DO come to different conclusions. Look at the now cliché eternal war between PC and Mac uses - from the outside, it looks ridiculous. And yet, given that we’re talking internet geeks, chances are the participants are the logical, cerebral type, and yet they still get solidly emotionally invested in things to the point that they behave completely irrationally. Of course, you don’t see that when you’re one of the participants; I’m willing to imagine that you’re engaging in a certain amount of the same behavior here.

I am absolutely sure that I behave irrationally at times. When I do, I would hope that a true friend would take the time to point it out to me.

Now, a probably apocryphal quote attributed to Einstein defines insanity as continuing to engage in a behavior, and yet expecting different results.

WIth all due respect I see little utility in this. Is it insane to keep trying to light a fire against the cold even though the first few attempts failed? If a large rock prevents me from digging a garden should I strike it with the hammer only once? There are many worthwhile tasks that require repeated similar behavior in order to complete them.

Everyone is, of course. All the logic in the world won’t replace emotions - and of course, the reverse is equally true. But if you’re convinced that you behave in a strictly rational manner, it indicates that you’re a little bit lacking in insight - since, after all, you’re not. Like I said, self-insight is not something people are born with; it’s not meant as an insult when I say this. No one has a perfect understanding of themselves, after all. So you can make up for that gap by smiling calmly and trusting other people to make the right decisions for themselves when it won’t hurt you.

I do not believe I behave in a strictly rational manner, at the exclusion of emotionally, as you seem to suggest (forgive me if I misunderstood.) I am tremendously lacking in insight, but I’m working on it. I no longer try to impose my beliefs on her, or anyone else, for that matter, unless asked, or provoked into it.

[Contrapuntal]

@astro

What LSLguy said. This finger ticking off of “don’t manipulate, lie etc” is often done by emotionally brittle, and extremely literal, people who have hard time dealing with the normal in and out of relationships, and the fuzzy boundaries that define normal interpersonal negotiations and strategies. These types of people have a huge penchant to feel betrayed, let down or “manipulated” if things don’t go just the way they expect, and are in general a pain to deal with, because they are always searching for the next presumed “lie, betrayal or manipulation” in their relationships, which becomes self fulfulling prophecy in many cases as people eventually scramble to get away from them.

“Sigh… lied to/betrayed/manipulated again”

I’m not quite sure how to take this so if I am taking it wrong please forgive me.

Are you talking about me? If so, how dare you! If you are talking about someone else, what’s the point?

[Contrapuntal]

@DrScarlett

trandallt , why do you want to have this conversation with her? From your posts here, you seem quite content with your standards and she seems to be, at the least, accepting of them or she wouldn’t hang around. Obviously, you two don’t agree, so why start the discussion?

Also, I was never questioning your loyalty to her, just offering an opinion on how she might be feeling.

One more thing, if you are really dead set on her hearing you out on this, write it down. I’ve always found that difficult conversations are best started on paper. It allows you to get past the initial reactions to the real meat of the issue. Then, you can talk about it.

I wish I could have this converation with her because I value her opinion so highly. Your advice to write it out is a very excellent one; really a very axcellent one. In the past that has helped me to explain myself to her. Thanks.

[Dogzilla]

I think the only bar you set to high is your expectation that your friend should think the same way you do. I have a friend like this. Among other wacky ideas, she has asserted to me such gems as:

• Catholics do not read the bible. They are prohibited from reading the bible and get all of their doctrine from catechism. Her father is Catholic and he says so, so it’s true. :smack:
• Dennis Kucinich is/was the Green Party candidate for President, because the local Green Party chapter ran an ad of his in their monthly newspaper. :smack:
• Wellbutrin has not helped me quit smoking at all. I had cravings for cigarettes and simply would not admit that to her. It’s all in my head because she quit cold turkey. :rolleyes:
• Even though I’m a professional editor and have been for the last 15 years, I have a degree in journalism and have spent my entire life reading, writing and editing… I am not a literary person at all, even though I’m the only one of us who picks up on the symbolism and themes in a movie. :dubious:

All of these assertions are the result of me being too pedantic and trying to show the truth or prove her wrong. We’ve had huge arguments about all of these things because I cannot stand to idly listen to someone assert something that is blatantly wrong. I have to pull out the facts and straighten these things out. I can’t have my friend running around in public talking to strangers about the Green Party’s great candidate, Kucinich. People would think my friend is an idiot, and she really isn’t. She refuses to accept any evidence I present to her and will shut down and stop discussing the issue if I press to hard.

My point is, perhaps I set the bar too high as well. I don’t think that’s the issue at all, nor this discussion about logic vs. emotion. I think I’ve insulted her and she has allowed herself to feel intimidated and insecure about her own range of knowledge. She sees my attempts to fight her ignorance as a judgment on who she is. While I do not intend my comments to be perceived that way, I must accept that this is how she views them.

I am learning to just nod my head and smile when she says something like this. I just hope she doesn’t take my lack of argument as tacit agreement! I was discussing this situation with my mom and her advice was, “What does it matter? Why do you have to be right? Does it change the friendship if you’re wrong? Just let it go. Don’t correct her. Let her walk around and be wrong. That doesn’t reflect on you.” Moms are usually right, and mine is really good at this sort of thing.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@trandallt

If I could talk to her about this topic I would. Recently she said to me again “your standards are too high” but I did not rise to the bait. (Actually she said it as she was leaving the room so there was no chance to rise to the bait.)

What was the context in which she said this to you? It would help to know why, specifically, she thinks your standards are too high, or who you’re excluding with your high standards that she thinks you shouldn’t. Although I get the impression that you yourself aren’t clear on what she means, but you can’t get anywhere by asking her, so you turned here in hopes of gaining some insight.

Take card-playing as a metaphor for life. Some players follow the rules scrupulously and wouldn’t dream of cheating. Others will cheat whenever there’s an opportunity and think it’s fine as long as they don’t get caught. If you decide you don’t want to play cards with the second kind of person, that’s your prerogative, and an entirely reasonable choice in my opinion. (You might also choose to play with them but watch them like a hawk.)