What should the Dem position on Islamic terrorism be?

Actually, I don’t have any problem with any of the Dem positions taken on this thread. Why? Because it’s online. Most of the people who read online discussions of political issues are pretty skilled at sorting out the wheat from the chaff – at figuring out what’s an actual extremist viewpoint, what’s being misrepresented as an extremist viewpiont, and where the bulk of posters actually stand on an issue.

If any Dem said on the radio or the TV that “I support the insurgency in Iraq,” I’d be calling to have him drummed out of the Democratic Party and so forth in a heartbeat, and accusing him of being a Pubbie plant as well. The gucks aren’t quite so good at figuring these things out.

For the record, I think most of the people who are blowing up American soldiers are also blowing up Iraqi civilians, and I’m not at all sympathetic to them. Probably some of them took up violence because they lost loved ones in the war, but that doesn’t excuse more murder, of civilians or of soldiers. I also hope the Americans can somehow manage to avoid killing any more Iraqis.

On the basis of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

They’re the same guys. The bad guys.

No. See, the French Resistance were the good guys. The Nazis were the bad guys.
Does any of you see a theme here? In American electoral politics, the Americans are the good guys. We are not a nation of imperialists sucking oil out of far-away lands, we are plopping a democracy down in a place that sorely needs one among people who deserve one. Just like we’re doing in Afghanistan. The right has moved past its dictator-appeasing past and realized that regular people forming a proper democracy is the best way to combat terrorism. We’re going after the root causes. The President acknowledged our error in front of the UN: For too long, many nations, including my own, tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. We have a big, bold, vision and a plan to make things right. In this plan the Americans are the good guys.

So to reiterate the answer to the OP: The Democrats don’t have to do all that much. All they have to do is find candidates with a vision and a plan and get rid of the people who think Americans are the bad guys.

You said:

I said: “You’d just as soon see Americans die as Iraqis die.”

That is, you do not favor one life over another. There is no difference here, except to the extent that you read my phrasing of your comment as an indifference to death at all. To the extent that my characterization of your post says this, I withdraw it. But the fact of the matter is simple: as between Iraqi deaths and American deaths, you are unwilling to characterize either as worse than the other. They are both tragedies, but I am willing to say I would rather see American soldiers survive and Iraqi bombers die, given the choice between that and the reverse.

Now, since you specified “innocent life” perhaps you are excluding American soldiers and/or Iraqis of some stripe. A clarification would be nice. But from what you’ve posted, it sure looks to me like you’re saying that all deaths are of course unwanted, but precisely equal in their impact. I don’t agree.

I think it’s premature to call Afghanistan a success. In reality, the new government controls Kabul and precious little else. The interim Iraqi government has little legitimacy and even less control of the country. There is no reason to expect that this will improve after the election. Not every place can support democracy, particularly when there are large antagonistic ethnic groups involved. And what is the evidence that democratic nations are a protection from terrorism? Consider the IRA and Tim McVeigh- both products of free democratic societies. I wish the Iraqis well in their quest for democracy, but I don’t like their odds. Nor do I see a happy result as a victory in the war on terror.

The man you see in the mirror is enough.

How does one refute a sneer?

If you wish to discuss the matter substantively, this is a fine place. If you don’t, then you might as well not waste keystrokes. I do note, in passing, once again, that you have never offered any factual support for your assertion that the war is going wonderfully. Just in case you thought ignoring that would make it go away.

Mr. Moto, yes, I had forgotten about those two sad, lonely racists who thought the GOP was sympathetic to them. Do you think they make up for Buchanan’s vitriol that was never repudiated? Or does Buchanan, a prime-time convention speechmaker and multiple primary winner, cancel out Sharpton, who never won squat and has never gotten any sort of official recognition of importance in the Democratic Party? Try again. The history is that the GOP welcomes extremists, bigots, and isolationists as long as they keep a low profile and vote for them. You can’t say that about the extremists who still identify with the Democrats instead of creating their own parties.

Which French Resistance? The Communists who were most of it throughout the war and took most of the risks, or the Gaullists who sprang up after Normandy and took most of the postwar credit? See, not even that is as simple a question as the conservative electorate in the US would like it to be. The world is complicated, and simplistic solutions are doomed.

Nice defense of your sheeplism, btw. I’m sure you found yourself very convincing. But there’s still this shiny little turd on the table:

You’ve already been asked for some names of those persons in the American political arena who think Americans are the bad guys. Do you actually have anyone in mind or are you just hurling a stinkbomb into the room and running away snickering about getting something over those snottynoses who spend all that time with that facts and reason shit? Be an adult here, please.

My personal position on terrorism is that a suicide poster should blow up this thread and every post in it.

Yes, and that was the lie. Or at at best, a gross mis-interpretation. BTW, you left out the next sentence:

That is the question I’d like answered before I continue down this rabbit hole.

Your willingness to choose means nothing to me. I resent the idea that a choice must be made. I wonder why you don’t.

At best, this is a childish assumption. I expect you can do better than that, or be man enough to concede the point.

Sure, you’re happy to have somebody *else * go die for your cause. :cool:

ElvisL1ves said:

“Dead Enders” means that they have NO OTHER OPTION. These are people that are not welcome in Iraqi society. They have committed atrocities. Many will be tried and executed or imprisoned if caught. They are fighting to the death, because there’s nothing else they can do.

This notion that the insurgency is the equivalent of the ‘minutemen’ (Michael Moore says so) is just insane. They are not freedom fighters. They are not nationalists fighting to free their beloved people from an occupation. They are fricking thugs and murderers, and what they want is to establish a totalitarian dictatorship in Iraq. Why you cannot see this is beyond me, other than that your hatred of the Bush administration is so strong that you find yourself rationalizing the actions and motivations of anyone making it tough for the administration. So you twist the insurgency into a campaign of freedom against occupiers, which causes you to ignore uncomfortable details like the assassination of school teachers, engineers, election workers and police officers, or the clear attempts to incite the shiites into sectarian violence by blowing up mosques.

The ‘insurgents’ are simply trying to create chaos so that the elections are not held or are invalidated. They want the country to devolve into civil war and chaos, so the Americans will give up and go home, and they can take over. They care not how many Iraqis die in the process, because these are the same people who were willing to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to maintain ‘order’. They’re monsters.

And when you make excuses for them and engage in Schaadenfreude every time they bomb something or kill someone, you marginalize yourself and the party you claim to be part of.

Yes, they are. What I should’ve said is that attacking American soldiers isn’t terrorism, but there’s no point. What I probably should have done is not mention it. I do agree that this “the bad guys” stuff is childish. I’ll be very happy if the Democrats, or anybody, can keep discussions of terrorism above the picture book level.

And just to bring things around full circle, I agree with this. I think the whole idea of a vision is very important.

By the way, I saw the exact same behaviour from the left during the cold war. They were willing to excuse every atrocity the Soviets were committing. I had debates just like this one twenty five years ago, only then it was with people telling me that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justified because the Soviets were paranoid from WWII, and were trying to establish buffer zones, and besides, didn’t the U.S. do the same thing? Who’s to say who’s right? And by the way, the Soviets have health care for everyone! And they respect teachers there! Soviet influence in Central America? Hey, those states invited them in! It’s a people’s revolution! Those Cubans in Grenada are just construction workers with 50 caliber machine guns. Americans oppose them? EVIL Americans!

Stalin had a name for western sympathizers. He called them ‘useful idiots’.

This was a problem for Democrats during the cold war. They only got elected when they suppressed their looney-tunes fringe and elected hawks like John Kennedy. But then they turned left in the 60’s and nominated McGovern in 1972, and the party still hasn’t fully recovered. Had the cold war not ended, I suspect you would have seen Republicans hold the White House for all but twelve of the past fifty years, and Carter only got elected because of Watergate and a terrible economy. Besides, he portrayed himself as a military hawk, and sharply increased military spending.

But there’s a new war on, and you guys better either A) get with the program, or B) get used to disappointment.

Yet the numbers keep growing, and the frequency and severity and extent of their attacks keep growing. Are there *more * ex-Saddamists now? Or are the blogs you read still misstating the extent of the situation?

You know what they want, well, how? Haven’t they, all the different groups, made it clear that they want us out?

That repeated slander is getting pretty damn sickening. You do know better. Take it to the Pit if you must, but dropping it entirely would be much better.

I already mentioned collaborators.

The last part is certainly right. The rest is tighty-righty propaganda from your blogs.

See above. That is a fucking lie and by now you fucking know it. It’s spelled schadenfreude, btw - note to the ignorant.

How the US Lost the war in Iraq will be the issue in 2006.

Islamic Terrorism will be quaint old news. Dem position? Ignore it.

No, what one might call the “let’s-pretend-con” position is taken by the GOP; the Dems just need to take up the “real-con” position on terrorism.

First priority, for now and forever, should be to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists. Think 9/11 changed things? If terrorists set a nuke off in one of our major cities, it would make 9/11 look trivial, both in terms of the actual carnage, and in terms of the country’s response.

This means allocating the resources to secure nuclear materials in the former USSR as swiftly as is reasonably possible. This means making nuclear arms nonproliferation and control our #1 diplomatic priority. This means pursuing a foreign policy that doesn’t put small, nasty countries in the position of feeling they need nukes as a poison pill to keep us from invading. This means rewinding the clock three years and not invading Iraq. (Oops.)

Because, let’s face it, since terrorists don’t themselves have access to sophisticated engineering facilities, the most likely way for them to get a nuke in the next 15-20 years is for them to obtain a working bomb from a country that already has them, such as Iran or Pakistan. So our first goal should be to minimize the number of Irans and Pakistans that have nuclear weapons. (Not sure how we best do that in a post-Iraq world, but it’s not the only seemingly insoluble problem our invasion of Iraq has created.)

At some point, we will have to worry about terrorists being able to build their own nukes if they get enough plutonium or U-235, but not just yet. But with that day in mind, we should give a high priority to controlling, accounting for, and regularly inspecting nuclear materials around the world.

We also need to keep an eye on developments with bio and chem weapons, to forestall the day when they can be used as weapons of mass destruction. (I took the position two years ago that they aren’t WMDs yet, and I’ve seen no evidence to change my mind since.)

And we need to guard against terrorism by conventional means. This means that rather than simply have an airline-passenger-harassment program to give the public the impression they’re being protected (but without the reality), we need a more thoroughgoing program to inspect cargo coming into our ports and put on our planes. We’ve known this for three years, but little has been done. Similarly, we need to protect our nuclear and chemical plants.

Finally, there’s the terrorists themselves. They aren’t a static group, of course. Bush’s initial stated post-9/11 policy was the right approach: conduct a foreign policy that at the very least commands the respect of the bulk of people in the Islamic world, thereby drying up the sea in which Islamic terrorists swim. Then track down and capture or kill those engaged in international terrorism.

(FWIW, Bush specified at the beginning that our concern is with international terrorism. Terrorism that’s one country’s domestic politics carried out by violent means is primarily the concern of that country. There will be exceptions to this, but a policy on terrorism need not address them up front.)

The diplomatic policy should be consistently pro-democratic, but not one that seeks to gain democracy through drastic upheavals: such upheavals are, in the short run, a cure worse than the disease. Neither France in 1791 nor Iraq in 2004 was a good place to live. But in the past 30-some years, we’ve seen countries like Taiwan and South Korea transition from authoritarianism to democracy; we need to suss out how best to nudge countries such as Egypt, Jordan, and Syria down this path. Steady pressure on such governments to allow and give greater freedom over time to opposition groups must be part of this picture. We may wind up with variations on Islamic democracy or even theocracy, but that’s the risk we take. We need to make it clear that if that’s what they choose, we’re prepared to live with that - as long as they don’t support terrorism.

Both for purposes of diplomacy and antiterrorist intelligence, we need to actively encourage and support not just study of the appropriate languages such as Arabic and Farsi, but study of the culture as well. Our biggest problem in operating in the Islamic world in any manner, be it trying to win hearts and minds, working with friendly intelligence agencies in the region, or playing cat-and-mouse with al-Qaeda operatives, is our poor understanding of the cultural milieu in which we must operate. FWIW, our intelligence agencies are trying hard to recruit speakers of Arabic and so forth, but the shortage is such that they wind up stealing from one another. Hence the need to create more speakers of Islamic languages and students of Islamic culture.

And we need more Special Forces troops and more CIA operatives to track down and capture or kill terrorists.

That’s my Democratic antiterror policy. Most of this is stuff that John Kerry ran on, this past fall. He regards nuclear proliferation as the #1 threat. He advocated a speedup of our efforts to help Russia control its nuclear material. He advocated inspecting containers being shipped into the country, air cargo, nuclear and chemical plants. He wanted to expand the Special Forces. And so forth.

Two other things we need to do, long-term, to aid our antiterrorist efforts. One is to reduce domestic demand for petroleum. As long as we depend on large quantities of imported oil, we’ll be hindered in our antiterrorist efforts by our dependence on countries such as Saudi Arabia. We can’t be honest about the Wahhabi role in promoting Islamic extremism as long as we have to kiss Saudi butt.

The other thing we need to do is become fiscally responsible once again as a nation. As long as we depend on foreign central banks to hold dangerously large quantities of our debt, there’s a lot of actors out there whose interests may often be different from ours who we have to keep happy. On occasion, pleasing them may interfere with what we need to do to combat terrorists. For a great power, we’re not in a great position these days. We need to be a good deal freer than we are right now from the entanglements of debt and energy dependency in order to be able to chart our own course.

I’m sorry but your word isn’t good enough, Sam. I’ve worked on medical relief crews in a few places, and I’d have to ask you for a cite to prove your allegations.

Fuck the Michael moore reference, but why do you assume that people who are not thugs or murderers would not fight against a foreign invader? Any personal anecdote to share here? Any historical reference? Like, WTF???

You are seeing here, second hand, the outrage of such an invasion. Why is it so impossible to believe that innocent Iraqis themselves are not similarly outraged?

I don’t get that reasoning at all.

Look at the cites I posted for Bricker, Sam. Look at them. I’m just a naive crackpot pacifist posting here to annoy you, but…what’ve you got to justify that carnage and degradation? What???

And if these theoretical US ‘insurgent’ also deliberately put car bombs in markets to slaughter the maximum number of civilians, deliberately attacked police, assassinated officials AND their families, strapped explosives to themselves to go into malls and blow the shit out of yet more civilians, pulled over and methodically executed 50 odd national guardsmen, etc etc…I’d call a spade a spade. What? You think because they are Americans I wouldn’t be willing to call them cold blooded and cowardly murderers?? You are sadly mistaken.

On what basis do I judge such things? Well, on the basis of my own humanity of course. On what other basis do any of us judge anything??

Inability? All I see is the inability to distinguish between moral right and wrong to be honest. To me its pretty cut and dried. You have a government who was in the wrong for invading another nation, but who has tried, to the best of our ability, to avoid civilian casualities whenever possible. On the other side you have a group of people who has shown repeatedly that one of their major goals is to maximize civilian casualties whenever possible. Certainly its a lot easier (and more dramatic) for these ‘insurgents’ to attack soft targets like civilians, Iraq police and National guard TRAINEES, and politicians than it is for them to duke it out with our military (or even ambush them or hit them with roadside bombs). This doesn’t excuse such tactics though…well, not to ME anyway. Obviously though some (and I’m not saying YOU either) DO find excuses for such behavior…all in the name of getting rid of those hated Americans of course. However, the thrust of the more recent attacks has really BEEN against the Americans in any way…its been against those forces trying for stability and peace in Iraq.

Well, not many folks are in FAVOR of killing for killings sake…least, not many folks in this thread anyway. However reality has to rear its ugly head occationally and you have to acknowledge that while you might not be in favor of something, said thing is still going to happen reguardless of your wishes. As for making a moral distinction of a US soldier vs an Iraq Insurgent…well, if you can’t make the distinction between the two and they are both morally equivelent to you, then thats your right. For me the distinction is much easier, even if I’m not a supporter of the Iraqi invasion. To me its a battle between forces trying for stability and peace, vs those who want instability and strife…with the US/UK/Iraq interim government vs the insurgents of all stripes in Iraq.

Well, you can think whatever you like…dwell on just the bad and ignore the good. All societies are made up of both elements, the dark and the light…and America is no different. However, we DO live in a civilized society. And the Iraqi war hasn’t changed that at all. Perhaps it was wrong of the US to invade Iraq…perhaps we should have left them alone to continue to suffer under Saddam. I think we should have anyway. However, even though we invaded their nation and deposed Saddam, even though thousands or even 10’s of thousands of Iraqi’s died, still the US did its best to depose Saddam and conquere Iraq with as little loss of life as possible. Deep down you know this…because you know just how destructive we COULD have been had we chosen to go the uncivilized route.

Had we decided we didn’t want to take any US loses we could have devastated Iraq from afar…and there isn’t a single thing they could have done about it. The death toll could be millions…instead of thousands. Iraq could look like Germany or Japan after WWII…or worse. And after such devastation and sustained carnage just how much fight do you expect the Iraqi’s would have had in them afterwards? How much did the Germans or the Japanese have in them after years of death and carnage? Not much.

We COULD have gone that route…who is there to stop us after all? America in this day and age is the 800 lb gorrilla who can do whatever it likes…if it chooses to do it. We could have used a hammer instead of a scalpal…but we didn’t. Think about THAT next time you are thinking how ‘uncivilized’ your nation is.

You just finish a philosophy class or something? You REALLY love throwing out these logical fallacies at people…you tried to pin either 2 or 3 on me in the last thread we debated in, I can’t remember which. I guess you figure that if you toss out enough of them, one will stick sometime. :slight_smile:

Well, I have a son who is a Marine…and who is scheduled to be shipped out to Iraq sometime next year. I have two cousins who are currently in Iraq, and a cousin who came home already but who may have to go back next year also. So for me its not just an intellectual excersize but very real.

I’m not taking anything away from the Iraqi’s who are suffering through whats going on there…but I’m also not forgetting that the Iraqi’s suffered for decades before this, and that many of the folks who are currently putting them through hell are the same ones they suffered under for those decades before. I’m not forgetting that innocent civilians, men, women, children, the old and the young suffered cruelly under Saddam and his merry men…nor that some of that suffering and even death was because of the sanctions the US/UN imposed on Iraq. Nor am I forgetting that while the Iraqi people suffered Saddam grew rich off the Oil For Food program…and he wasn’t alone in growing rich either. So…morally this is kind of a bit more complex than you are making it out to be, no?

-XT

Hey, wait a minute, there…the President, and Vice President said that there were weapons of bio and chemical weapons in Iraq…and so did the National Security Advisor, and the Secretary of State, and the head of Central Intelligence Agency. Hell, even Tony Blair, Prime Minister of Her Majesty’s Government said that there were bio and chemical weapons of mass destruction.

You don’t mean to tell me that all of these esteemed people were wrong do you?

I’m shocked. Shocked and appalled.

Why do you give up your gut instincts and defend this atrocity?

No, I don’t know this, deep down, or anywhere else. What’ve you got by way of facts? How destructive we COULD have been? What sick scenario are you using to justify this? Give me a break with that bullshit bravado.

Over 100,000 Iraqis are dead. God only knows how many permanently injured. In addition to the US casualties and wounded (I’ll assume that you as a true patriot are tracking these numbers closely). Did we fall under the magic number that makes this worth it, by any standard or ideology? See, I don’t know what that magic number is.

I already told you, tu quoque means nothing to me. I’m wondering how it is justification enough for you.

Then I truly feel sorry for you. I hope they come home alive and intact.

No, not unless you’re willing to put a dollar price on your own son’s head. Morally complex you say?

Oh, and if you ever do post that thread about the Oil For Food Program, be sure and tell us what happened to the $$$ given over to Paul Bremer that went missing. Just a head’s up for you…

Some people in this very thread. Hell, is Bricker going to have to actually buy those billboards before you see 'em? 'Cuz it’s kind of an invirtuous circle – if the Democrats don’t see them in regular font, Bricker will be able to buy the billboards with the proceeds of his '06 campaign bets. If they do, he won’t but the Democrats won’t have needed them.

Ooh, questioning my adulthood? My manhood? My gosh.

I hadn’t been made aware that GD was now a proper place for personal insults. As soon as the moderators confirm that it is, though, I’ve got a million of 'em! You wanna go, we’ll go.

Manhattan, you seriously mean this stuff right? Because this could be a hilarious parody.

I disagree. I can support the right of someone to do something without either hoping that they do it or hoping that they succeed.

Maybe so, but I’m not sure that this affects our view of whether it is justified to carry out acts of insurgency. One can support the right of someone to carry out one act and condemn them for carrying out another seperate act, no. I mean, the US army that is hunting for Al Quada terrorists in Afghanistan is the same ‘group’ belonged to by some soldiers who have murdered civilians and been responsible for torturing and humiliating prisonners in Iraq, can I not support them in one activity while condemning the other?