What should the USA do in Iraq?

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

I’m not seeing where the Kurds have aligned with the terrorists or conspired to start a civil war agsinst the government in Baghdad.

Do you think they are?

Since I never said that, I’m at a loss as to why you would even ask.

The Kurds are more than happy to stay out of the Civil War, letting the Arabs fight amongst themselves. That’s what they did in Civil War I, and that’s pretty much what they are doing in Civil War II.

Now, there might be some issues revolving around Kirkuk, and we may in the future see some fighting between the Sunni Arabs and Kurds. Who knows. But right now, the main action in Iraq Civil War II is between the Sunni Arabs and the Shiite dominated central government.

[NotfooledbyW]

@CarnalK

Are the Baathist supporters Iraqis? Are the Baathists supporting/involved with this attack? If both of those are “yes”, then this is civil war. Are any of the tribal leaders Baath supporters? If so then again, yes, the Kurds are negotiating with the “terrorists”.

They are negotiating with whom they are planning on killing. That is an interesting scenario.

[CarnalK]

@NotfooledbyW

They are negotiating with whom they are planning on killing. That is an interesting scenario.

A) they might end up killing each other but I doubt that is the “plan”
B) it’s not that interesting a scenario. Par for the course.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Since I never said that, I’m at a loss as to why you would even ask.

The Kurds are more than happy to stay out of the Civil War, letting the Arabs fight amongst themselves. That’s what they did in Civil War I, and that’s pretty much what they are doing in Civil War II.

Now, there might be some issues revolving around Kirkuk, and we may in the future see some fighting between the Sunni Arabs and Kurds. Who knows. But right now, the main action in Iraq Civil War II is between the Sunni Arabs and the Shiite dominated central government.

The Kurds have not stayed out of the civil war. They are fighting on the same side against the same enemy as the Iraqi government.

Do you know what ‘ousted governor of Nineveh’ means? He is not fighting the central government either.

Mr Saleh said his people are working with Atheel al-Nujaifi, the ousted governor of Ninevah, to transform Iraq into a federal state.

And do you know what ‘expel ISIS’ means?

The first step would be to create an “Arab Sunni army” that is autonomous of Baghdad’s Shia-dominated government to expel ISIS from Mosul and lift the threat to Kirkuk. “We would support the Mosul governor’s move for federalism,” said Mr Saleh, adding that the two territories could defeat ISIS without any help from Baghdad. “Our Peshmerga forces, and the Sunni army are enough to stop ISIS.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901796/Iraqi-Kurds-seize-their-chance-to-build-foundations-of-a-new-state.html

You have obviously lumped all Sunni Arabs into comraderie with the ISIS killers.

Its not a civil war because all Kurds and all Shiites and all good ousted Sunnis are all three fighting the few thousand ISIS invaders and plans are, according to the Telegraph, the Kurds and the ousted Sunnis are planning to put together an Army and remove ISIS from Iraq.

I have to think most male Iraqi Sunnis of fighting age are going to side with the Peshmerga/Sunni alliance, not ISIS.

[NotfooledbyW]

@CarnalK

A) they might end up killing each other but I doubt that is the “plan”
B) it’s not that interesting a scenario. Par for the course.

See my post 104. It is part of the plan unless ISIS melts away before being killed.

[DingoelGringo]

@XT

The trouble with the US doing nothing is that the same issues that actually drove us to invade in the first place are still viable. No, not WMD. Oil. Iraq still comprises a rather large percentage of both oil reserves and current/projected potential production. We can’t really afford to have that production cut substantially, nor for the potential revenue to fall into the hands of folks who will use that money to spread or support terrorist movements and expansion into the other large oil producing nations near them. So, the US can’t simply ignore what’s happening in Iraq, even if we helped create the mess because, aside from the rather key point about oil we helped create the freaking mess.

That said, I’m unsure of what we can really do at this point to help. I doubt anyone (except maybe the Kurds) would be keen on the US putting troops back into the field in Iraq. We’ve already tried to train the Iraqis with pretty mixed results (to put it mildly). And I’m not sure we want to be part of what will almost certainly be the solution, which is supporting Iran and the current Shia government (plus tribal militia groups who are going to really bring things back to the bad old days of the mid 2000s) because it will, IMHO, be a total blood bath with Sunni and Shia killings on both sides, and most likely in the end some level of ethnic cleansing of the less numerous Sunni when the Shia militias really get rolling.

How extremely stupid can one get. All the reasons for ruining their country are still valid? Huh? None of the warmonger’s excuses were ever valid at all. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and THe presidunce knew it all along. SO what excuses for destroying their country are still valid? Tell us. Bush and Cheney never could, though they tried a dozen different lies.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Since I never said that, I’m at a loss as to why you would even ask.

I didnt say you said it. I want to know what you think about it.

I’m not seeing where the Kurds have aligned with the terrorists or conspired to start a civil war against the government in Baghdad. Do you think they are, or did?

[John_Mace]

The Sunni Arabs have aligned with ISIS. At least for the time being,

The Kurds are trying to stay on the sidelines and let the civil war give them an excuse to become de facto independent, if not de jure independent. But it might not be as easy this time for them to stay out of things since the US is no longer there to tamp down the violence.

[CarnalK]

@NotfooledbyW

See my post 104. It is part of the plan unless ISIS melts away before being killed.

See all the stuff already posted that Iraqi Baathist Sunnis are working with ISIS. See all the stuff already posted about the Kurds officially saying they are not fighting ISIS unless their demands are met. There is no two ways about it. The Kurds are NOT going to fight for a unified Iraq.

[NotfooledbyW]

@CarnalK

Do you even hear yourself? More autonomy than they have now which, btw, is basically complete?

The central government controls oil exports and field development and pipe lines. So no the autonomy is not complete and the big development is Kirkuk is now or could be part of the Kurdish Regional Government.

Baghdad’s control over Kirkuk may well be history now that Kurd forces are at long last in control of Kirkuk and have no intention of leaving. Writing on Twitter, Fanar Haddad, of the Middle East Institute at the National University of Singapore, wrote: “Is it just me or has Kirkuk, an issue of massive complexity & contention & the possible source of a future war, been solved overnight?”

After the events of the last few days it seems the Kurds can now, at last, make their own rules.

Iraqi Kurdistan Set To Become An Independent World Oil Power

Of course no respectable nation in the world would recognize an Independent Kurdish state that did not respect the territorial integrity of Iraq. And what if the Kurds conspired and sided with terrorists to seize territory from Itaq.

[CarnalK]

If you had been paying attention, the Kurds have been bypassing Iraqi “control” of oil exports. Kurdistan built an oil pipeline to Turkey. The autonomy is all but complete. The only thing they have to gain by helping rump Iraq is to help stabilize the region.

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

Of course no respectable nation in the world would recognize an Independent Kurdish state that did not respect the territorial integrity of Iraq.

No respectable nation recognizes Crimea as part of Russia. You didn’t seem to care about that.

[NotfooledbyW]

@CarnalK

See all the stuff already posted about the Kurds officially saying they are not fighting ISIS unless their demands are met.

The Kurds are already fighting ISIS. The Shiites are fighting ISIS. Soon

Iraqi Kurds battle Sunni fighters in Kirkuk
Last updated: 18 June 2014
Peshmerga establish control over northern city while ISIL fighters seize control of vital oil refinery in Baiji.
Iraqi Kurds have clashed with Sunni fighters over control of the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, as thousands of internally displaced refugees head away from the area to escape the swelling violence.

Kurdish Peshmerga forces fought with fighters from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) on Wednesday in an attempt to establish control over the northern city and its vast oil reserves, a potential high-value economic zone that Kurdish leaders believe can heavily boost their ambitions of a sovereign state.

Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera

And total independence may not be a Kurdish demand:

Declaring independence — and formally fragmenting Iraq — is not easy. The United States and neighboring Turkey oppose Kurdish independence. And the Kurds can expect constant clashes not just with insurgents but also with Iraqi forces if they unilaterally break away and claim the areas they grabbed, said Kurdish analyst Hiwa Osman. “If the Kurds want true independence, (there) has to be a treaty,” he said.

Given that resistance, the Kurdish government is pressing for even greater powers of autonomy but not full independence.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/kurds-emerge-winners-iraq-chaos-24214832

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

No respectable nation recognizes Crimea as part of Russia. You didn’t seem to care about that.

Lviv split from the elected central government of Ukraine first and participated in the coup. Then Crimea split after the coup. Why care.

Likewise the Kurds can take advantage of the situation with ISIS and go for full independence, but there are problems with that since the US and Turkey oppose it. They have not declared independence yet have they, so lets wait to see what they do with their good negotiating position. Negotiating is not civil war.

[John_Mace]

The Kurds are not part of the war. At least not yet-- they don’t have to be. They are mostly thrilled that there is a civil war in most of the country, as all the news reports are saying. Even your preferred expert has changed his mind and realizes that.

[NotfooledbyW]

@CarnalK

If you had been paying attention, the Kurds have been bypassing Iraqi “control” of oil exports. Kurdistan built an oil pipeline to Turkey. The autonomy is all but complete. The only thing they have to gain by helping rump Iraq is to help stabilize the region.

If Autonomy were all but complete why would the KDP (Barzani) say this;

… “bidding for an ever-greater degree of autonomy”

The Barzanis’ Kurdish Democratic Party, which is enjoying increasingly warm relations with Turkey, is bidding for an ever-greater degree of autonomy. The weaker Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, run by the ailing Jalal Talabani, Iraq’s federal president, is closer both to Baghdad and to Iran. To complicate matters, most of the land taken by the Kurds this month has been on the Patriotic Union’s side of Kurdistan.

PNI Atlantic News

And here are four Kurdush demands go Maliki. None are for full independence:

[QUOTE]
. [Because the balance of power has tipped in favour of the Kurds, they are sure to press forcefully for three big concessions from Baghdad.

They want a law to legitimize the export of oil from the Kurdish region

and to allow them to benefit directly from contracts with foreign companies for managing and extracting new finds.

They want Maliki to hand over their full share of the federal budget,

and they want the Peshmerga to be paid from central government coffers. /QUOTE]

[John_Mace]

Dude, are you ever going to read your own cites? At least read the part of the cites you quote. Those are not Kurdish demands. Those are things that the author of that articles says (as you quoted) that the Kurds are “sure to press forcefully”.

But at least you now seem to acknowledge that, per you own cite, the Kurds have no interest in cooperating with Maliki to defend Iraq:

Though Maliki may need the Kurds, they have less reason to need him. Relations between Erbil and Baghdad remain patchy. Communication between the two cities during this crisis has been limited. Since ISIS began sweeping south, Maliki has not asked the Kurds for help. Nor would they be keen to oblige.

“Why should we?” Mustafa asks.

Their priority is to defend Kurdistan and its people.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

But at least you now seem to acknowledge that, per you own cite, the Kurds have no interest in cooperating with Maliki to defend Iraq:

They are defending their territory from ISIS killers. Just like Shiites and Sunnis. That is defending Iraq. They are still part of Iraq.

[CarnalK]

The Kurds’ Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani, a nephew of President Masoud Barzani, says that Iraq no longer can hold together. However, the Kurds, though united for the moment, habitually debate the degree of independence they hope to achieve and the tactics they should pursue.

also from your linked article. Your argument that the Kurds are defending Iraq and this isn’t a civil war is a little ridiculous and often countered with your own cites. Why do you have so much invested in a united Iraq?

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

They are defending their territory from ISIS killers. Just like Shiites and Sunnis.

The Sunnis are allied with ISIS. And the Sunnis and Shiites are fighting over the same territory, not “their” territory. The Kurds don’t give a shit about Shiite or Sunni territory.

That is defending Iraq.

No, it is defending Kurdistan.

More here.