You want honorable Southern war heroes?
Daughters of the Confederacy should put this daughter up on every town square.
How the hell hell is anyone going to know who Robert E. Lee was if there’s not a statue of him Charlottesville, VA?
Wait a minute… that’s not how learning works. If a significant percentage of your historical knowledge comes from statues, you should probably take a trip to your home town, gather as many of your elementary school teachers as you can find, and spend the rest of the day graciously accepting their apologies which you so richly deserve.
Are you kidding? Of course that’s a reasonable distinction to make. Of course I can judge the merits of a rebellion based on what folks are seeking to do. How the hell would that make me a hypocrite?
It’s how I think about everything. Is driving a car okay? Sure, if you’re driving yourself to go get dinner. No, if you’re driving to go commit mass murder. Is eating dinner okay? Sure, if dinner is a bean burrito. No, if dinner is your still-screaming victim whom you kidnapped earlier in the day.
What kind of reasoning declares a person a hypocrite for delving into details before making a judgement?
You appear super interested in whether the Confederacy were traitors. Honestly, I couldn’t give less of a crap about their treason; as you point out, successful treason becomes revolution. Treason is a value-neutral act. The question isn’t whether they were traitors, the question is what they were trying to accomplish. And what they were trying to accomplish–the protection and expansion of chattel slavery, with its concomitant rape, torture, and familial destruction–is so inexcusable that it renders every secondary decision illegitimate.
As for those poor Southern towns mourning their dead, I call bullshit. Most of those statues were put up in two waves: in the years surrounding the Wilmington coup/massacre of 1898, as part of the re-establishment of white supremacy in the South; and after World War 2, as part of the drive to cement Jim Crow in the face of black soldiers returning from the war. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, a group dedicated to “the memory of our Confederate heroes and the glorious cause for which they fought,” put the majority of them up.
They’re deliberate propaganda to promote a mythological, racist history. Just as our public libraries don’t need the featured bookshelves to hold only books by Klansmen about racial superiority, our town squares don’t need to feature statues and plaques dedicated to a racist ideology.
Mourn the poor fuckers who died in slavery, and sure, mourn the poor fuckers who were forced to fight for slavery. But glorify them? Screw that; statues that go beyond mourning the senseless evil tragedy of their deaths are not good public art.
I am mixed on this one. On one hand, I agree anything that can be learned about the Confederacy can be learned better from the depth and breath of written and visual history of the Civil War. On the other, I kinda think these statues and monuments serve as a reminder about something important that happened in our country.
For example, I remember when I was traveling in Germany in my 20s, I met friends there who heard I was planning on visiting Dachau, the concentration camp that has been preserved and is essentially a memorial now. They were somewhat teasing me for wanting to go and see it, commenting “we just want to forget about all that.” This was in the 90s and they were all young people for whom the war there was not of their generation.
The point being - NO! We do not want to forget that! Leave it there to remind humanity what NOT to do. So, I kinda lean to 4. Leave them alone and learn from them, and 3. Put up comparable memorials to black figures and leaders of the time, to put the whole story in context. I dunno.
Washington was treasonous from the point of view of the British. He owned slaves as well. I heard a state was named after him, a street or two, maybe some counties, a city, he’s carved into a mountain, is on the quarter, and the dollar bill. Victory erases all sins I suppose.
My vote is just leave the stuff be. Stop freaking out over a statue. I’m more concerned with dysfunctional parts of the country than I am a red herring like a statue.
Meh, I would pay no mind for the ones freaking out that they are removing the statues.
The statues exist as an attempt to glorify a bad part of our history. They are not portrayed as being bad things, but as things to honor. If you want to make a “never forget” argument, then statues need to be showing them as the bad guys.
You want a statue of Lee? Show him surrendering after the U.S. won. You want the Confederate flag? Show it being taken down, or maybe even torn in half by a former Confederate soldier. Celebrate those who fought and died to preserve the Union. Memorialize the slaves who died, or those who helped in the Underground Railroad. You can keep the history while honoring the good guys.
The rest is just historical artifacts–of the time when the actual statues were made. So use them in that context in a museum, if they have any value at all.
Just stop this glorification of the Rebel South sticking it to the Union, since they did so over slavery. Stop the glorification of the KKK by keeping the things they added which symbolize everything they stand for.
These statues were put up to honor these people, even if they threw in some sign to appease people who didn’t like it. Remove them from their place of honor, and put them where the actual context (one of shame) can be shown.
Are these items in Britain - the country against which he committed treason? Does the queen have statues of Jefferson sitting around in Buckingham palace? Is Paul Revere ever riding through the halls of Parliament? If so, it would be understandable for someone from the UK says they should take down the statues of traitors to the crown.
This argument makes no sense; treason does not exist in a vacuum. To the best of my knowledge, Washington didn’t commit treason against the US. The confederate leaders did. That is a very big difference. I cannot understand why people would be unable to see it without it being explicitly pointed out.
There IS one simple answer: museums. I am not ignoring reality, do trust me on that.
Boy am I sick of this line of rhetoric. My feeling sick should not persuade you, but consider: the colonies were aggrieved by ‘taxation without representation’, whereas the CSA were fully represented by the federal system they had AGREED to join. Telling Colonial Brits to shove it is one thing- telling your own lawful government the same thing is really a whole 'nother kettle of fish. If you can’t see that, you are either the problem or some kind of propagandist, in which case you are still the problem. The difference is not winning vs. losing at all; it is justice vs. injustice. The Brits were unjust, and so were the CSA.
Sorry. Come back with convincing argument please.
Nobody is suggesting that removing a statue handles the entire complex post-war history of the south. That’s not the point; the point is to remove statues erected by ugly people to celebrate the ugly institution of white supremacy.
Besides, the history isn’t as complex as all that. People’s rationalizations are complex, but who gives a damn. Let them go to a library and read about real history instead reading a paragraph off a bronze plaque, standing in front of a statue with your hand over your heart. Let them engage their minds instead of their sentiment.
That’s the whitewashed version. He was also an unabashed white supremacist who mistreated his slaves/sharecroppers both before and after the war. The noble reluctant warrior story is, like much southern mythos, invented to cover up the monstrosity of the real cause
You’re right, the story is complex. Great lies must necessarily be complex to paper over all the details of reality.
What a load of nonsense false equivalence. The American revolution wasn’t built on white supremacy and the preservation of slavery.
Sacrifice for WHAT? If it’s a sacrifice for white supremacy, it’s not brave nor noble.
I think you know this, but your “proper” method is never coming. This is just another way of saying “do nothing, forever”.
Really? Until the Obama and Trump administrations I don’t remember the Nazi/Confederate alliance gathering in town squares for torchlight vigils.
All this is happening because nobody had the balls to look the South in the face and say “It’s over, you’re safe now, but you’re wrong, your cause was wrong, and you’re not ruling over even the city dogcatcher office until you get this through your fool skull. And don’t even think about memorializing that shit in bronze” Lincoln erred on that point, and we’re dealing with the aftermath now.
Take them down. If they’re of particular artistic or historic value, then they can be displayed in a museum where their context can be properly explained.
To display them in a common space implies that they represent the values of the community - and in this day and age, they most certainly do not.
Wow! That is totally on point. Can you point to the town square that has the monuments of them? I’d love to see pictures of them.
Hey, did you know that there are still people who look up to Hitler? Amazing, right? I think they had a quiet march in Virginia somewhere recently, but I don’t think it was in the news or anything.
This is totally analogous since there are pictures of Washington is squares all over Britain. Or so I assume, since you brought him up. Can you link to some photos of the many Washington statues in the UK?
Bolding mine. Great example of this is right here in metro Atlanta. The City of Decatur is just outside downtown Atlanta, and is probably the most liberal minded neighborhood in Georgia. It is incorporated as a city and is also the county seat. It is a mecca for artists, LBGT individuals and families, and pretty much anything liberal associated.
It also has a Confederate Memorial in the center of it’s Courthouse Square. It’s a hideous obelisk, no artistic value whatsoever. Nothing to be learned from it, except that like the rest of the south, Decatur has a racist past. Duh! All of Georgia has a racist past. Heck, most of Georgia has a racist present!
Anyway, if it were up to the people of Decatur, that thing would come down and be trucked to the landfill. But, it’s not up to them. Georgia has a law on the books prohibiting the removal of any Confederate Memorials without the state legislature approving, which, of course, will not happen.
I grew up in VA, and now live in GA. I’m a southern boy, through and through. I have seen dozens, if not hundreds of Confederate Memorials all over the south. Sorry, but that shit needs to go.
Is there any reason to think there are museums that want these statues?
And you know what happened to that statue of George III? at least the parts that didn’t get turned into musket balls?
It ended up in a museum. Several museums, actually. The New York Historical Society and the Museum of the City of New York, both in Manhattan, have pieces and the base. Other pieces are in other collections (see link)
I was astonished to stumble across these bits. I’d assumed that the entire statue had been melted down. I never would have guessed that people could actually find them. I shouldn’t be surprised at the human tendency to collect souvenirs, though.
So what many people have been suggesting actually occurred – despite being broken up and melted down, the statue really did end up in a museum – or museums – for the edification of people about their history.
Interestingly (and ironically), the statue has been reconstructed:
Once the rebellion was over and Lee had the opportunity to show his true colours, he advocated for the deportation of blacks and for blacks not being permitted to vote.
Lee was a very bad person.
There are probably a lot more monuments than museums will feel the need to accomodate. And there are some monuments that should remain, such as Confederate memorials for dead soldiers. I keep saying that we should not substitute our judgment for those who lived through it. The decision to forgive and reconcile is settled and irreversible and we should honor it.
I think a good general rule is that anything that went up before 1865 should be considered history, and either left alone or have top priority to be moved to a museum. Anything after that was just a middle finger to the North and African-Americans and I’m not too concerned about it. A Confederate statue built in 1924 has no more historical value IMO than a Confederate statue built in 2016. It’s just not that long ago and it was done many decades after the war was lost.
So as I have argued that we should not try to reverse the judgment of our forefathers on reconciliation, we should also not allow southerners from the early 20th century to honor those who were the villains of the story.
So to sum up, if it’s REAL history, let it be. If it’s early 20th century revisionist history, I don’t care too much, although there might be some work that is iconic enough that it should be preserved in a museum.
I have a feeling that the people inclined to defend these statues and monuments as “history” would fail a fifth grade history test.
The monuments glorify and glamorize. They don’t teach anyone anything except that if you take up arms against your country to keep people oppressed, someone years later will commission a giant statue in your honor and whitewash your story.
In Richmond, we do have a number of monuments to notable black Virginians. There’s Maggie Walker’s statue that was just erected (she has also has a museum in her honor). There’s also one to Bill “Bojangles” Robinson and Arthur Ashe. They are cool because these are people who wouldn’t get mentioned in history class, so monuments really do keep them in the public’s collective memory. Just like how I didn’t learn who Seth Boyden was until I lived in Newark, NJ and saw his statue in Washington Park. Now I will never forget who invented patent leather. But I have been hearing about the Confederate generals since elementary school because the Civil War was a major historical event. We don’t need monuments to the generals to remember the Civil War. I also assert that there is little value in remembering all the generals of the war. Unless you think we need to remember the generals of the Vietnam War to appreciate how horrible and embarrassing that moment in history was.
The problem with creating monuments to “black figures and leaders of the same time” is obvious. Black people were victims of horrific oppression during that time. You aren’t going to find a black native son or daughter who has the same name recognition or historical profile as someone like Robert E. Lee, so you end up having to choose people from other periods, which dilutes whatever lesson you’re trying to teach. Then you end up with a situation where you’ve got magnificent monuments for the white racist traitors because they were commissioned by well-heeled people into hero worship, and relatively “meh” statues for the black people who are no-names, relatively speaking. Case in point: the Arthur Ashe monument versus the Robert E. Lee monument. It is very jarring to see the racist traitor literally elevated over the humanitarian. What lesson does that teach?
The monuments don’t teach anyone how life in the Confederacy really was. They don’t teach the reasons behind the Civil War. All they do is honor the generals so it becomes that much easier for children to think that the Confederacy was a noble cause that’s been misunderstood. I’m falling to see how affixing a plaque to these monuments is going to change that.