What should we do with confederate monuments and statues?

[amarinth]

Did you read any of these links before posting them?

@Urbanredneck

Now they want to tear down the Washington and Jefferson monuments in DC.

First, this article is dated 3 years ago. Second, no one in the article advocated for tearing down the monuments that you mentioned. People did advocate for more complete portrayals of Washington and Jefferson that include both their good and bad traits and actions.
Your summary completely mischaractarizes the article.

This has gone overseas where they are looking at removing the statue the Baden Powell, the man who started Scouting, for “temporary” safekeeping because people have threatened to destroy it.

Again, someone who read the entire article would know that this isn’t a “historic” statue as it’s only about 10-years-old. And that some of the Scouts themselves are in favor of removing the statue Baden-Powell’s character.

Now the crazies are being applauded for tearing down statues to Columbus.

Again, we are giving license for every jackass with a grievance to go around tearing down every statue and monument to whomever they dont like.

So, if I came to you and said - “There’s this guy! He oversaw torture, ordered cutting off children’s hands, ran rape gangs, beheaded people, and established enslavement!” your first thought would be “Sounds awesome and someone we should glorify. That guy needs a statue!”?

[squeegee]

@Urbanredneck

But dont you get it? They wont stop.

I’m surprised you haven’t worn out those pearls, clutching them so frantically.

[Telemark]

@squeegee

I’m surprised you haven’t worn out those pearls, clutching them so frantically.

It’s the fainting couch that really shows signs of wear and tear.

Seriously, Urbanredneck, you need to read your citations before posting them here. They rarely say what you represent them as saying, are outdated, or don’t apply to the question at hand.

[Czarcasm]

@Urbanredneck

I mean their are few people of the past who’s actions would survive the morals and values of the 21rst century.

What Columbus did was immoral in his time. Do you really believe he deserves statues honoring him? If so, why?

[Kimstu]

@Urbanredneck

Now they have defaced a statue to Matthias Baldwin, an abolitionist.

Now tell me this hasnt gotten out of control.

Okay: This hasn’t gotten out of control.

Sure, people running around with spray paint defacing various flat surfaces with graffiti are in one sense “out of control”, but that happens all the time in all sorts of contexts.

The fact that some indignant random folks spray-painted the word “colonizer” on Matthias Baldwin’s plinth doesn’t mean that there’s any kind of serious activism effort afoot to have his statue officially removed.

[GIGObuster]

IMHO, as one who has looked at history, I do not see the big efforts in USA in the past to recognize Columbus in 1892 and later as a coincidence, why was he so important in the USA when he never set a foot there? Yeah, Italians and Spaniards needed someone too recognize, but why others recognized a colonizer when the USA fought guys like him to get liberty?

Well, Columbus did land in the Americas, as in Latin America; and the USA was ready to emulate and use Columbus’ example of what he did there.

The big stick policy and empire building of the 20th century in the Americas by the USA needed someone to emulate.

[Kimstu]

@GIGObuster

The big stick policy and empire building of the 20th century in the Americas by the USA needed someone to emulate.

Interesting article “Columbus, Columbia and Columbianism”:

[…] the public (rather than the professional) American history of Columbus can be traced over three chronological periods: first, Columbus as a feminine, classical deity, Columbia, an allegorical figure symbolizing liberty and progress; second, the masculine, fifteenth-century European, Columbus, who sanctioned nineteenth-century American Manifest Destiny and western expansion; and third, Columbus as the major symbol of Columbianism, a late nineteenth-century form of patriotic Americanism that involved cultural and political hegemony and various ethnic and religious identities. […]

The gradual transformation of feminine Columbia back into masculine Columbus took place over the course of the nineteenth century. Columbia never disappeared, but Columbus’s reputation expanded. […]

For a large number of Italian-American immigrants and many Catholic Americans, however, Columbus served as an opposite symbol. He became an American ethnic saint in an era of unprecedented immigration. […]

Celebration of various “Columbus Day” activities appears to have begun in the United States in the mid-1860s. […]

Old-stock New Englanders and midwestern Scandinavians, however, contested Columbus as the nation’s primal symbol. “Because of hostility directed at Italian immigrants,” argues Michael Kammen, “strong resistence arose (starting in 1892) to making Columbus Day a legal holiday.” As a New York Times editorial insisted in 1903: “Nobody needs a ‘day off’ every year to think about COLUMBUS and the discovery of America. . . . Nobody but our engaging friends of the Mafia would need all day in which to celebrate the feat of their compatriot.” […]

African Americans were unwillingly involved in the Columbian legacy from the beginning, but they were shown at the 1893 fair only in their 1492 roles, as were members of several other nonwhite cultures. As the exhibited rather than exhibitors, they were kept “in their place”; that is, they were located by the fair’s white- controlled Department of Ethology in miniature villages, compounds, and reservations on the fair’s midway. […]

[iiandyiiii]

@Urbanredneck

But dont you get it? They wont stop. You are encouraging them to tear down statues of confederates but then its statues to the leader of the Boy Scouts, to Columbus, to George Washington, … All because as you say, “we dont have statues to Hitler” so a statue to Baden Powell and Columbus is the same as a statue to Hitler?

I mean their are few people of the past who’s actions would survive the morals and values of the 21rst century.

What SHOULD be done is they should put a plaque at the statue talking about their good and bad points so people can be EDUCATED.

This is already going on. Statues get moved and removed, whether you like it or not. And they always have, some of the time. Society’s views of morality can change, and this can lead to changes in how symbols are viewed and used.

There’s no use whining about it. Apparently you agree that it’s okay to remove Confederate statues, just not others. If so, fight for the ones you think should stay.

[Urbanredneck]

@amarinth

So, if I came to you and said - “There’s this guy! He oversaw torture, ordered cutting off children’s hands, ran rape gangs, beheaded people, and established enslavement!” your first thought would be “Sounds awesome and someone we should glorify. That guy needs a statue!”?

Probably not. But removing a statue by legal authorities is different than telling cheering when a crowd tears one down.

[Urbanredneck]

@Kimstu

I feel that my thoughtful proposal in post #416 about strategic latrine placement above the Confederate Monument on Stone Mountain captured the spirit of your suggestion there.

However, I’d like to propose a refinement of my earlier idea about how to clean the resulting accumulated shit off the monument: Anybody who enters the park with any kind of Confederate memorabilia or insignia gets placed into that day’s shit-scrubbing lottery. If your ticket number is the one picked out of the hat, then cleaning up that shit is your job.

Yes I see. Be all funny, funny about why its ok to go around pooping and defacing any damn statue you want.

But where will it end?

Now they are having to board up a statue to Winston Churchill.

Again, this is getting crazy and you should not encourage it.

[k9bfriender]

There are states that have passed laws prohibiting their municipalities from altering or removing the statues, no matter how the people that actually live in those cities may feel about it.

But, are there laws against putting up other statuary around them?

It wouldn’t exactly be historical, but if you have a statue of Davis, then maybe you have a statue of Harriet Tubman punching him in the face, maybe Frederick Douglas kicking him in the balls.

Could we put up a diorama around one of these statues that leaves the statue untouched, but now shows the person being honored in bronze to be burning in the flames of hell?

[k9bfriender]

@Urbanredneck

Yes I see. Be all funny, funny about why its ok to go around pooping and defacing any damn statue you want.

But where will it end?

Now they are having to board up a statue to Winston Churchill.

Again, this is getting crazy and you should not encourage it.

I went to OSU, and after nearly every football game, the statues of the founders of the school were defaced or defecated upon.

Let’s care about the living, and let pieces of metal that some people like to look at take care of themselves for once.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

The amount of abuse USC’s Tommy Trojan has taken from just pranks would any Confederate statue to shame.

[Czarcasm]

@Urbanredneck

Yes I see. Be all funny, funny about why its ok to go around pooping and defacing any damn statue you want.

But where will it end?

Now they are having to board up a statue to Winston Churchill.

Again, this is getting crazy and you should not encourage it.

Here is the story behind one of your precious statues. “Richmond’s Confederate Monuments Were Used to Sell a Segregated Neighborhood”.

[carrps]

@Mr.Miskatonic

The amount of abuse USC’s Tommy Trojan has taken from just pranks would any Confederate statue to shame.

And he deserved it!!!

[Urbanredneck]

@Czarcasm

Here is the story behind one of your precious statues. “Richmond’s Confederate Monuments Were Used to Sell a Segregated Neighborhood”.

So your saying Winston Churchill is the same as a confederate leader? Dang, where did you learn history?

So every damn statue that gets torn down or defaced deserves it because they are the same as Hitler or Jefferson Davis?

[GIGObuster]

@Urbanredneck

So your saying Winston Churchill is the same as a confederate leader? Dang, where did you learn history?

So every damn statue that gets torn down or defaced deserves it because they are the same as Hitler or Jefferson Davis?

He was not talking about Churchill there, but the Confederate Monuments that are defended before by you before.

[Urbanredneck]

@GIGObuster

He was not talking about Churchill there, but the Confederate Monuments that are defended before by you before.

Ok, I can sort of see that.

My point is we shouldnt give a license to everyone to just go around pulling down or trashing every statue they want. I have no problem with a city legally taking one down .

Interestingly there is a similar debate going down right now at the campus of the University of Missouri about removing a statue to Thomas Jefferson.

The college sat down with all parties, listened, but decided not to do it. Here is the statement:

“The conversation was an example of the power of civil discourse and included discussion of complex issues and different perspectives,” Choi said. “After further discussion with other curators, the university decided not to remove the Jefferson statue. We learn from history. We contextualize historical figures with complex legacies. We don’t remove history.

“We are committed to maintaining open lines of communication, including continuing conversations and learning from all involved.”

[Czarcasm]

@Urbanredneck

So your saying Winston Churchill is the same as a confederate leader? Dang, where did you learn history?

So every damn statue that gets torn down or defaced deserves it because they are the same as Hitler or Jefferson Davis?

I’ll get back to you when you learn how to respond to what is actually said instead of your own wild interpretations.

[Muffin]

500 posts in, it’s pretty obvious that there will be no meeting of the minds. There are a couple of Urbanredneck pittings dealing with the underlying problems, but frankly even they are a waste of effort other than a place to vent.