And how are they supposed to reign in extremists? Israel has confiscated nearly all of the PA’s weapons and equipement. Not only that, but they refuse to allow them more. How well do you think the US Army would have done rooting out the Taliban if all they had were a couple of batons and a handgun or two?
The Palestinians have been set up to fail so that Israel can have an excuse to not only keep existing settlements in the West Bank, but to further expand them and strip land away from the Palestinians.
I’m sure that there are many Israelis who would like nothing more than that. But there are a huge number, including many in the government, who would love nothing more than to continue to expand settlements and strip land from the Palestinians until they are pushed from the region forever.
Sharon is counting on the PA not being able to control Gaza. Israel has completely stripped the PA of any ability to control anyway by refusing to allow them to re-equip themselves and has begun the de-settlement in the area where Hamas is most powerful and the PA is weakest (Gaza). The fact is that the Gaza settlements are the easiest for Israel to give up in terms of resources, politics, economics and in return, they will have more ammo to keep their settlements in the West Bank.
Again, people talk about how “generous” Israel is, but has Israel ever offered the Palestinians complete equality? I mean, isn’t that what you and I would want for ourselves, if we were in the Palestinians’ position? You can talk about carrots, but the Israelis’ carrots are old, shriveled, moldy. And then they act all indignant when the Palestinians refuse them!
Same goes for Gaza. Whatever “carrot” is being dangled, it’s not equality and it’s not sovereignty. So what is? Just more of the same old crap.
Not really. If I had any belief that this was actually a good faith effort by the Israelis instead of a cynical ploy to get some heat off of them while the secure their hold more firmly on the West Bank settlements and expand them, I might have some faith.
Israel could actually permit the PA to get the equipment and weapons necessary for them actually exert some control over their territory. That would be a good start. As of now, they’re just set up to fail and everyone knows it.
Israel gets the attention because Israel has all the power.
What moral accountability do you want from the Palestinans? Israel strips them of their rights, and it’s the Palestinians’ fault? Israel could give Palestinians citizenship and equal rights tomorrow, but of course they won’t, because that would “destroy Israel.” Or the Israelis could let the Occupied Territories have sovereignty, but they won’t do that either. They prefer to leave Gaza in limbo and let it rot.
I see you have a couple of errors in your post. Let me help you correct them.
should read “The Palestinians are being told, don’t send bombers, snipers, or in any other way, attack us,”
should read “And eventually you’ll prove yourselves trustworthy enough to give control of the land to, without us having to worry that you’ll just use it as a base of operations to launch further attacks.”
The PA never reigned them in when they had their weapons and equipment anyway. Except for maybe an arrest here and there for good pr, and even then plenty of those people were eventually released.
Except, of course, Israel doesn’t want to give control of the land. Indeed, a large portion of Israel’s rationale on where to stick settlements was to make it nearly impossible for a continguous, viable Palestinian state to ever emerge in the West Bank. See this month’s Economist for a cite.
Exactly – the word “eventually” means… well, what, actually? 100 years from now? And in the meantime, no Palestinian enjoys a single right of citizenship, because they’re waiting for the “eventually.”
And at the end of the day, it all comes down to collective punishment based on ethnicity alone. Doesn’t matter if you’re 1 or 100, if you’re Palestinian, you’re guilty.
I don’t think Israeli’s expect anything on the Palestinian side because of the withdrawl. Sharon’s policy for the last several years is that there IS no Palestinian “side” that you can negotiate with and reach agreements with. The Gaza pullout wasn’t an attempt to get some concessions from the Palestinians, it was an internal Israeli decision.
There is no “peace process”, there hasn’t been since Arafat rejected the Camp David peace agreement and restarted the intafada. There certainly won’t be a new peace process until some Palestinian leader emerges who both wants a peace agreement and is able to enforce a stop to the war. No such person exists, therefore peace is not possible.
I keep making this point over and over in this thread, but to no great effect, it seems. Once again, from the top: Why do we keep throwing the onus onto the Palestinians? Did they invent Zionism? Was it their idea that they should be second-class citizens, or stateless and rightless?
It’s entirely more correct to say, “There certainly won’t be a new peace process until some *Israeli *leader emerges who… wants a peace agreement.” Israel could end the conflict tomorrow by making Palestinians fully equal citizens. But it won’t – of course. Israel is fully committed to a social system based on discrimination. So why are we letting them off the hook about that, and throwing the blame on the Palestinians? Is it that we no longer care about equality? That we suddenly think a social system based on ethnic discrimination is both right and practical?
Gaza, the West Bank, Israel proper – these are not separate problems, they’re the same problem, and they have the same solution: citizenship and equal rights for all.
First of all, Israeli Arabs are equal citizens. Legally, they have equal rights. In practice, they don’t neccesarily, but that’s social and economic, and social and economic discrimination is a lot harder to get rid of than legal discrimination.
As for the West Bank and Gaza, the people living there aren’t citizens, because the West Bank and Gaza aren’t Israeli territory…the Palestinaians recognize that, the Israelis recognize that, and the world community recognizes that. Israel is an occupying power.
And there have been Israeli leaders who wanted a peace agreement. Begin did. He gave land Israel was occupying back. Rabin did. Barak did. Even Sharon does. But the problem is, whenever the Israeli government tries to negotiate a peace agreement, Palestinian terrorists blow up busses and shopping malls. That has to stop.
Wow, I don’t know how many times I have to say this. None of these leaders – Rabin, Barak, Begin, Sharon – offered the Palestinians want they want, and what would end the conflict: namely, equality, and equal citizenship. Again, if you were Palestinian, would you want anything less?
And by the way, it’s a myth that Arabs in Israel enjoy equality, legal or otherwise. See this site if you want a couple of examples.
The Palestinians, or the majority of them, at least want an independent state. They don’t want equality within the Israeli state. There’s almost no support in either country for a one state solution that doesn’t involve genocide.
And most of the B’tselem website deals with rights abuses against Palestinians, not against Israeli Arabs. You’re conflating the two populations when they have different legal statuses.
Wait, I sincerely disagree with you that what Palestinians want is a one-state solution in which both Israelis and Palestinians would have full citizenship. Seriously, provide some evidence that’s what Palestinians want. No, Israelis want an Israeli state, Palestinians want a Palestinian state. I’m sure you could find examples of Israelis who want a one state solution with Palestinians given second-class status or expelled, or Palestinians who want a one-state solution with Israelis given second-class status or expelled.
There isn’t going to be a unitary state, no one wants that. The pre-1967 status where Israel ruled what is now Israel and Egypt ruled Gaza and Jordan ruled the West Bank isn’t going to happen either, Egypt and Jordan don’t want the regions. So there will have to be two states, and until that happens the Israelis will have to continue the occupation. Some Jews might be citizens or residents of the future Palestinian state, some Arabs might be citizens or residents of the Israeli state (and some are today). But there will be two states, your dream of one state will never happen without some form of apartheid (in the best case), or dictatorial rule where no one has civil rights anyway, or mass expulsion, or genocide (in the worst case).
Most, but not all. And why is it that abuses against Palestinians in the OT don’t count? Because they have a different legal status? Jews in the OT don’t have a different legal status; why should the Arabs? It’s all a game. The fiction that the OT are “disputed territory” is purely meant to keep the Arabs there from voting.
As to the “impossibility” of a one-state solution mentioned by you and Lemur, I have to say why? Look at South Africa – you could have made an identical argument there for a two-state solution. Genocide is a banner waved by those who are afraid of losing their privileged status.
The reason the Palestinians have pushed for a two-state solution is because it looked more achievable, not because it represented a beau ideal. But frankly, Israel has no more idea of implementing a two-state solution than it does a one-state one.
First of all, the only thing I saw on the website were abuses against Palestinians…and yes, they count, but you were claiming that Israeli Arabs were legally discriminated against, and your website didn’t illustrate that.
And it’s not just “a game”…the Israeli settlers are Israelis, from Israel, who moved to the West Bank or Gaza, so they keep their previous status as Israeli citizens. If an Israeli Arab moved to the West Bank or Gaza, he’d keep his status as an Israeli citizen as well.
The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were never Israeli citizens.
And why is a one state solution impossible right now? Because neither side wants it.
As to the Israeli settlers “moving” to the West Bank and Gaza, as if they were simply getting a new apartment out of the classified ads, that’s a dramatic distortion of the true picture. In fact, they moved onto land that was cleared of Arabs, they were given big subsidies to go, they were protected every step of the way by the Israeli military, they benefited from infrastructure put in by the Israeli government, they got the exclusive use of settler-only roads, etc.
As to the Israeli Arab moving to the West Bank or Gaza and keeping his rights as an Israeli citizen, well, you’re wrong there, and I’ve got a cite for that as well.
That law regards the status of Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens by saying that the Palestinian spouse needs to apply for governmental permission to live in Israel. It doesn’t do what you say it does.