From a Netscape/CNN news clipper
Gaza Evacuation Nears Completion
Hmm they are being given compensation of roughly $200,000 to $300,000.
<tap, tap, tap … this thing on?>
PLEASE FUCKING THROW ME OUT ON THE STREET WITH THAT KIND OF COMPENSATION.
I would happen to think that a couple hundred grand would be more than enough to get the israeli equivalent to a realtor and get someplace to buy.
All in all, it is remarkable how little GD and Pit stuff is going on about this pullout. Do the Teeming Millions (generallY) agree this is a Good Thing?
The Teemimg Millions, in general, are of the opinion that Palestinians are pure and innocent and good, peacefully living in harmony with nature and in mortal fear of the mean, demonic, bloodthirsty Isralies who periodically show up to rape, plunder and pillage, so of course they think this is a good thing. I tend to be more Pro-Israel, and while I applaud them for doing a hard, unpopular thing because they earnestly desire peace, I am willing to bet that in the end this will turn out to be meaningless unless the Palestinians effect a change in their leadership to a group of people who are not fanatical, racist, xenophobic proponents of genocide.
hear hear. (here here?)
What WeirdDave said.
It certainly is nice to see a nuanced, reflective, balanced point of view around here.
Neither side in this conflict is the salt of the earth, nor is either side the devil incarnate. I’m pleased to see Israel make the effort, and I do agree it will be meaningless unless the Palestinians make an equal effort.
“A pox on both their houses.”
-Big Bill Shakespeare
Romeo + Juliet, the Pirate’s Daughter.
I’ve been listening to news reports but so far I haven’t heard much in the way of explanation for why this is happening. I’m assuming it’s because it’s been too expensive and dangerous for Israel to protect the settlers.
It looks to me (unlettered in the history of this) to be a big step on the part of the Israeli government toward some kind of stability and progress.
As for the money, it sounds like a lot, but the first thing I thought of when I heard the amount of the average payout was that it must cost a lot to live there, because governments aren’t generally known for being over-generous.
Is the Israeli government going to be repaid by the Palestinians for the property they leave behind? Who gets it? Are they going to have a lottery or something? Will Palestinians moving in have to pay for it?
What about Israeli settlers who’ve married Palestinians? Do they have to leave too? Or are there none of those?
(I need to get a book on this – these are probably dumb questions.)
Congratulations, Wierddave, Ivylass; way to pre-empt any rational discussion of this issue.
Maybe no one’s bothered to post much on this issue because a) the ultimate effects of the pullout on the overall Israeli-Palestinian situation are yet to be seen and b) everyone is sick to death of axe-grinders and partisan shills ritually defecating over any opinions the merely interested may express in threads such as this one.
Me, I’m glad the settlers are getting such a remarkably high level of compensation, but otherwise I don’t have all that much sympathy for them, since (AFAIK) they basically appropriated the land they were on without much in the way of due process. Of course they and their representatives are going to pose their situation as dramatically as possible; it’s just good PR. As for what it ultimately means vis-a-vis Israeli-Palestinian relations, probably not that much in the short term, but my understanding is it wasn’t meant to. From my reading, it was a pragmatic decision by the Israeli government based on an inability to mount a practical defence of these settlements.
Unlike the above-mentioned posters, I’ll be happy to listen to more informed opinion on the subject.
*** Ding ding ding ***
We have a Winner!
This is the Pit, not GD. shrug
In any event, I think the pullout will not have the effect the peacemakers want. I hope it does, and I shall be happy if it does, but I think the fanatics on both sides are going to prevail.
Israel has pulled out. What does Palestine do to show their good faith in this effort?
I don’t particularly have an opinion about the current Israel vs. Palestine situation, but I have been listening to interviews with people who have been forced out of their home.
One guy was horribly upset at having to move his family out of Gaza. He’d been farming there for 23 years, and it was his and his children’s home. He described his last night there - they had a barbecue. In the background was gunshot noise. When the interviewer asked him about it, he said gunshots were so common that he didn’t even notice it anymore.
HELLO?!? You live in an area where GUNSHOTS are so common that you don’t notice them, and you’re PISSED that your government is paying you to move? Wake the fuck up! GUNSHOTS. You have KIDS. Why the fuck didn’t you move when the gunshots started?!?
The same guy took a piece of mortar that had crashed into his house as a souvenir.
snicker
You can always tell which people just do a quick listen to the Fox News report for their information by the ones who call this a peace move. It’s not.
It may very well end up that way, depending on how much aid gets put into Gaza, but that’s not the overarching intent. It’s to shorten the fighting lines and to give Israel some breathing room while they expand settlements in the West Bank to further cement their control on them.
It is, I have to say, a brilliant maneuver by Sharon - of course, whether his government will survive to see the endgame remains to be seen. He pulls out of Gaza unilaterally. If Gaza collapses, all the more evidence that the Palestinians aren’t fit to govern themselves and no more concessions need be given on the West Bank. If Gaza succeeds and becomes relatively stable, it becomes the base of new peace negotiations regarding the future of the West Bank - with the bonus that Israel can say they made a huge gesture of trust with the pullout and should be rewarded by getting to keep the expanded settlements in the West Bank. If the Palestinians refuse there’s not much they can do, because if another intifada breaks out we go back to the Gaza collapse situation.
The Israelis have put themselves in a remarkably good position with little risk and relatively little sacrifice. The Gaza settlements were never very numerous and never very important in terms of resources, politics or manifest destiny. Plus, there’s the extra security of the Gaza wall limiting the area’s ability to be a staging area for terrorism. And it’s not like Israel is going to hold back the troops if Gaza does collapse.
Whoops, right. Rationality is for elsewhere. Got it. My bad.
Closing tags is for elsewhere, too.
Silly Kabong! Rationality is for people who aren’t discussing Israel/Palestine. Either side.
Unfortunately, I’m more and more of the opinion that there simply IS no “acceptable” solution to the whole situation (Israel/Palestine, not Gaza specifically). The only way to break the stalemate is for one side or the other to commit absolute atrocities, either the Israelis completely destroying the Palestinians or the Palestinians completely destroying the Israelis. Talk about Israel solving it by granting the Palestinians full citizenship are fantasy…that WOULD create a minority-Jewish state and there’s absolutely no way that’s going to happen. Talk about solving it by deporting the Palestinians is fantasy…none of the surrounding Arab states is going to willingly absorb that kind of indigent population. This is a completely no-win situation. The irrationality comes in persistently considering it soluble.
Well, since I don’t watch Fox News, you lose on your assumption here. Isn’t it wonderful not to be required to use your brain? Just throw out whatever stereotype you wish as an excuse for ignoring whoever doesn’t share your little idiotic world view and then hang out with your buddies backslapping and kneejerking and congratulating yourselves on how brilliant you are. To put it in terms that your simplistic mind might be able to comprehend, in the real world, things aren’t only one thing or only another thing. They can have elements of more than one thing! Even be more than one at the same time! I know that seems amazing and complex to you, but I assure you, it’s true! While there may be strategic reasons for the Gaza withdrawal as well, are you going to claim that Israel doesn’t desire peace or that this move isn’t a step in that direction? And hey, just by the way, what concessions have the Palestinians given towards peace lately?
perfect summation of your first post in this thread. unless of course, you can support that
I’ll even give you “in general” won’t have to mean a 2/3’ds majority. let’s even see substantiation for “a significant number” believing that the Palewstinians are “pure and innocent and good”.
what I’ve seen (apart from bullshit such as that post), are folks saying that neither side is completely virtuous, some may lean towards one or the other as being less slimely, but certainly not anywhere near “teeming millions in general” suggesting that only one side does evil.
“Palewstinians” of course is the newspeak version of “Palestinians”.
There is probably much truth in what you say, Neurotik. I have no doubt that Sharon - who I’ve always imagined thinks more as a general than as a politician - concluded that retreating toward more manageable logistical lines, getting Gaza settlers evacuated (judged strictly by military considerations, they were soft targets that needed expensive Israeli protection), and receiving at least some muted international approval, has many more benefits than costs.
Combined with the policy of targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders and the barrier, it appears as if the current Israeli defense posture vis-a-vis Gaza has succeeded to the point where Israel can evacuate Gaza from a position of strength now (as opposed to withdrawing them at some future point, when due to demographic reality, the move might look as if it was borne out of desperation).
But I can only feel so sorry for the Palestinians. Oh, don’t get me wrong, those Palestinians who are stuck between Israel and their own extremists, who just want to live their lives with some peace and dignity have my sympathy for their current plight and my respect. I’d like to think that these people make up the Palestinian “silent majority”, but I’m really not sure I believe that anymore.
As a body politic, the Palestinians can plausibly claim the mantle of “Most Inept.” This last intifada has been an utter disaster for them, totally pointless and self-destructive. History and fate may have dealt the Palestinians a rotten hand, but too many of the Palestinian masses still cling to their illusions, and too many of their corrupt (or worse) “leaders” have been all too willing to indulge these fantasies instead of telling them the truth. The results have been disastrous.
This pullout might have been motivated by an opportunistic Sharon, sure. It may very well be a cynical move to increase Israel’s bargaining chips in future negotiations. None of that excuses the Palestinians if they collectively decide that the pullout was due to the latest intifada and that more “armed resistance” (i.e. Hamas’ methods) is the answer. At some point, the Palestinians have to put something tangible on the table.