What the fuck is going on at the New York Times?!

[asahi]

@QuickSilver

To the extent that those views have been more widely revealed by the NYT Op-ed, do you still think he should have been denied the opportunity to air them and face subsequent publicized opprobrium? Net-net, has this led to a largely positive or largely negative outcome for Cotton and his views?

What if Cotton had written an op-ed in support of segregation or something more odious? Should the Times print it?

Should the Times have printed an op-ed from Donald Trump on why he thought (still thinks) President Obama’s birth certificate wasn’t real? Where is the line drawn?

Why do we have a Trump presidency now? Why does absolutely nothing he says now, no matter how dishonest or outrageously offensive it is, surprise us anymore?

Because we’ve gotten used to it. Trump’s lies are normal. They’re what we expect.

Fortunately, we can still tell that Donald Trump is writing bullshit because it comes from his twitter account, and not in the form of a New York Times op-ed. Don’t for a moment think that there’s not a difference between the two. There is. The source matters.

I care about free speech and a free press as much as anyone here, but preserving these institutions of liberty requires more than just keeping speech and forums free to engage in endless inanities. It requires civic maintenance.

Consider why we have forum moderators here, for example: consider what kind of intellectual cesspit this would be without their work. We might experience a decline in the quality of thought and discourse anyway, but it won’t be because they didn’t try.

Whether it’s the Times or the SDMB, the very least institutions that value civic engagement and the free exchange of ideas can do is to avoid contributing to their own demise.

Standards matter.

[asahi]

@Linty_Fresh

Actually, this is a message board, pretty much the opposite of reality, but knock yourself out, and perhaps you’ve been concentrating on Trump, but Biden kind of sucks too, and yes, I’m a passenger clutching a barf bag during turbulence . . . over the middle of the Pacific Ocean with three engines on fire and the fourth engine making the good ol’ community college try.

What you seem to be missing, Chingon, is that Bernie’s campaign has serious problems. It’s not going to be even close to a shoo-in.

I’m beginning to wonder if you’re an unfortunate victim of some sort of time warp. You seem stuck in the past.

I’d engage with you more, but I can’t help ya.

[Chingon]

@Linty_Fresh

Actually, this is a message board, pretty much the opposite of reality, but knock yourself out, and perhaps you’ve been concentrating on Trump, but Biden kind of sucks too, and yes, I’m a passenger clutching a barf bag during turbulence . . . over the middle of the Pacific Ocean with three engines on fire and the fourth engine making the good ol’ community college try.

What you seem to be missing, Chingon, is that Bernie’s campaign has serious problems. It’s not going to be even close to a shoo-in.

Wrong poster bro. And I am decidedly not a Bernie supporter.

[Linty_Fresh]

@Chingon

Wrong poster bro. And I am decidedly not a Bernie supporter.

My sincere apologies, Chingon, I absolutely did not mean to do that. And I meant to type “Biden” anyway. But you’re right, that was my bad. :smack:

[Linty_Fresh]

@asahi

I’m beginning to wonder if you’re an unfortunate victim of some sort of time warp. You seem stuck in the past.

I’d engage with you more, but I can’t help ya.

Sigh . . . you don’t actually have to tell me you’re not going to engage with me, asahi. We sorta got the hint when you stopped engaging with me.

And if by “some sort of time warp,” you mean less than a month ago when the advisor broke in to end the interview after Biden basically told a (black) radio show host that black people who wouldn’t vote for him were Toms (“ain’t black”), then yeah, mea culpa, that’s been on my mind along with the sexual harassment stuff.

[QuickSilver]

@asahi

What if Cotton had written an op-ed in support of segregation or something more odious? Should the Times print it?

Yes. His constituents should know. The entire country should be aware. His views should not be a secret shared with only those who agree with them on media only they consume.

@asahi

Should the Times have printed an op-ed from Donald Trump on why he thought (still thinks) President Obama’s birth certificate wasn’t real? Where is the line drawn?

Yes. People should know the president is an unabashed racist, in his own words.

@asahi

Why do we have a Trump presidency now? Why does absolutely nothing he says now, no matter how dishonest or outrageously offensive it is, surprise us anymore?

Because to date, there have been no consequences.

@asahi

Because we’ve gotten used to it. Trump’s lies are normal. They’re what we expect.

Because, no consequences.

@asahi

Fortunately, we can still tell that Donald Trump is writing bullshit because it comes from his twitter account, and not in the form of a New York Times op-ed. Don’t for a moment think that there’s not a difference between the two. There is. The source matters.

All sources, including NYT, are subject to fact checking and debunking. As POTUS, Trump speaks ex officio. Even when he tweets, it’s ex officio, and subject to fact checking. Source/platform only raises the importance of fact checking.

@asahi

I care about free speech and a free press as much as anyone here, but preserving these institutions of liberty requires more than just keeping speech and forums free to engage in endless inanities. It requires civic maintenance.

I am aware of no laws preventing or restricting inanities when it comes to speech. Who shall we appoint to decide what things are too stupid to say out loud?

@asahi

Consider why we have forum moderators here, for example: consider what kind of intellectual cesspit this would be without their work. We might experience a decline in the quality of thought and discourse anyway, but it won’t be because they didn’t try.

Maybe you’ve not been paying close enough attention.

@asahi

Whether it’s the Times or the SDMB, the very least institutions that value civic engagement and the free exchange of ideas can do is to avoid contributing to their own demise.

Standards matter.

The demise of the failing NYT has been greatly exaggerated.

[margin]

@Linty_Fresh

margin, welcome back!! I was starting to worry.

And hey, your opinion is your opinion . . . but you’re still losing, right?

Maybe if you put as much thought into how to actually solve the problems as you do in how the people who create the problems are horrible, horrible creatures, you might stand a better shot in November. Even if it is November 2024.

“We”? It’s so sad you think you’re pulling that off.

[Linty_Fresh]

@margin

“We”? It’s so sad you think you’re pulling that off.

You lost us here, kid.

[Monty]

@Linty_Fresh

The problem with that, Chingon, is that I’m a Democrat.

The only way you’re a Democrat is if you’re a time traveler. You’re as much of today’s Democrat as Yankees 1996 Champs is American.

[Linty_Fresh]

@Monty

The only way you’re a Democrat is if you’re a time traveler. You’re as much of today’s Democrat as Yankees 1996 Champs is American.

Fair enough. You can believe what you want.

You–and this board–have become a bunch of intellectually dishonest, whiny, sensitive assholes who will not listen to dissenting opinions. You play the bait-and-ban game with conservatives, pat yourselves on the back for your genius, and go on to make the same goddamned arguments and the same goddamned complaints and the same goddamned mistakes over and over again. You make up new definitions of words to explain away your double standards, twist the facts to suit your pet theories, and then have the nerve to wonder why you always seem to lose.

You are shortsighted idiots, and your candidate–the guy who is going to save the United States from tyranny, or whatever you tell each other tyranny means–is a septuagenarian loser, liar, sexual harasser, and ineffectual fool, and yet, you will stand up for him, throw whoever comes forward with accusations of harassment right under the party bus, and carry on with a 900-page thread about how horrible Trump is. Without taking one solitary step to clean your own house. Without taking one moment to wonder, “Hey . . . I wonder if it’s me.”

You are going to lose this November. Wanna know how I know that? Because June 2020 looks exactly the same as June 2016, and you are making the same dishonest arguments, sticking your heads in the same ground, and refusing to believe the same people who are telling you to wake the hell up and deal with the world as it really is. In the next forum over, the same people who badmouth whatever conservatives are left on this board are busy kissing the ass of some Antifa fuckstick who waxes rhapsodic on burning down the businesses of black people to make a point that most of us have already gotten. You think kissing Antifa’s ass is going to help in November? Really? And when you wind up with the shit end of the stick yet again, it’s not going to be your fault. Oh, noooooo. It’s going to be mine. It’s going to be Trump’s. It’s going to be the electoral college’s and society’s and the white patriarchy. But not your fault. It’s never about you guys on this board.

I meant every word I’ve said–including my democratic affiliation (and for Christ’s sake, why would I even lie about that? I mean, what would be the point? Oh, never mind, it just doesn’t jibe with your preconceived notions of what the world is, that’s why.), and I stand by every word I typed above–and anywhere else on these forums going all the way back to 2003. In that time, I have not lied once. Nor have I ever resorted to the word game to prove an idiotic point that doesn’t make sense in the real world. I’ve admitted when I was wrong, apologized when I was out of line, and thanked people for teaching me stuff.

So what do you have to teach me? What do you have to teach anyone? Underneath your elegant little columns about sweet-fuck-all (and I will admit that they’re very articulate), you’re just like the Freepers. You’re beautiful on the Internet, but you are absolute shit in the real world. Well . . . in that case, you’re not like the Freepers. Those old-assed yokels actually leave the house and get stuff done. Your spelling might be better, but you’re not nearly as smart as you think you are.

And while we’re throwing around accusations, I think that anyone on this board who tells me that they’re political activists and actively working to put Biden in is a fucking liar. I think you’re full of shit. I think that if you’re political activists, I’m Malcolm X. You don’t talk like activists. You don’t argue like activists. You don’t have the practical outlook God gave gravel. You don’t seem to understand that truth–the kind of truth that helps you form arguments and get things done–is never ever convenient. You are Internet warriors and chat room orators, and that is all you are.

You guys aren’t Trump voters. I might not like Trump, but those guys are tougher, smarter, more effective, and more willing to get things done than anyone on this board will ever be. Face it. Trump is an asshole, but they’re better than you. And they’re going to win. And it’s going to be your fault.

Your move, chief.

[Chingon]

Back to using “you” again I see.

[Linty_Fresh]

@Chingon

Back to using “you” again I see.

That’s right, Chingon. As I mentioned above, I don’t lie.

[Chingon]

BTW it’s hard to feel sorry for some rando on the internet who is rooting for Trump to win out of spite because someone wasn’t soft-shoeing enough for their liking.

[Linty_Fresh]

@Chingon

BTW it’s hard to feel sorry for some rando on the internet who is rooting for Trump to win out of spite because someone wasn’t soft-shoeing enough for their liking.

I’m not rooting for Trump. I’m pointing out an unpleasant truth that you don’t want to hear. Learn the difference.

And what makes you think I care about what you think, let alone want your sympathy. It goes back to what I just typed. You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear, and when cold hard reality crashes in, you make 900-page posts about how awful it is that reality is the way it is.

[Chingon]

Listen dumb dumb, I don’t think Biden is likely to win. So you have nothing to whitesplain to me.

I also don’t think anything you’ve done has helped stop Trump from getting elected the first time or reelected this time.

In fact, the evidence shows you failed.

[Linty_Fresh]

@Chingon

I also don’t think anything you’ve done has helped stop Trump from getting elected the first time or reelected this time.

In fact, the evidence shows you failed.

Maybe. But at least I don’t lie about it or blame the people who disagree. I own the failure. My side lost, because we screwed up. There. I can say that.

[Chingon]

Lol, you need to pick a pronoun and stick to it.

[QuickSilver]

@Linty_Fresh

Fair enough. You can believe what you want.

You–and this board–have become a bunch of intellectually dishonest, whiny, sensitive assholes who will not listen to dissenting opinions. You play the bait-and-ban game with conservatives, pat yourselves on the back for your genius, and go on to make the same goddamned arguments and the same goddamned complaints and the same goddamned mistakes over and over again. You make up new definitions of words to explain away your double standards, twist the facts to suit your pet theories, and then have the nerve to wonder why you always seem to lose.

You are shortsighted idiots, and your candidate–the guy who is going to save the United States from tyranny, or whatever you tell each other tyranny means–is a septuagenarian loser, liar, sexual harasser, and ineffectual fool, and yet, you will stand up for him, throw whoever comes forward with accusations of harassment right under the party bus, and carry on with a 900-page thread about how horrible Trump is. Without taking one solitary step to clean your own house. Without taking one moment to wonder, “Hey . . . I wonder if it’s me.”

You are going to lose this November. Wanna know how I know that? Because June 2020 looks exactly the same as June 2016, and you are making the same dishonest arguments, sticking your heads in the same ground, and refusing to believe the same people who are telling you to wake the hell up and deal with the world as it really is. In the next forum over, the same people who badmouth whatever conservatives are left on this board are busy kissing the ass of some Antifa fuckstick who waxes rhapsodic on burning down the businesses of black people to make a point that most of us have already gotten. You think kissing Antifa’s ass is going to help in November? Really? And when you wind up with the shit end of the stick yet again, it’s not going to be your fault. Oh, noooooo. It’s going to be mine. It’s going to be Trump’s. It’s going to be the electoral college’s and society’s and the white patriarchy. But not your fault. It’s never about you guys on this board.

I meant every word I’ve said–including my democratic affiliation (and for Christ’s sake, why would I even lie about that? I mean, what would be the point? Oh, never mind, it just doesn’t jibe with your preconceived notions of what the world is, that’s why.), and I stand by every word I typed above–and anywhere else on these forums going all the way back to 2003. In that time, I have not lied once. Nor have I ever resorted to the word game to prove an idiotic point that doesn’t make sense in the real world. I’ve admitted when I was wrong, apologized when I was out of line, and thanked people for teaching me stuff.

So what do you have to teach me? What do you have to teach anyone? Underneath your elegant little columns about sweet-fuck-all (and I will admit that they’re very articulate), you’re just like the Freepers. You’re beautiful on the Internet, but you are absolute shit in the real world. Well . . . in that case, you’re not like the Freepers. Those old-assed yokels actually leave the house and get stuff done. Your spelling might be better, but you’re not nearly as smart as you think you are.

And while we’re throwing around accusations, I think that anyone on this board who tells me that they’re political activists and actively working to put Biden in is a fucking liar. I think you’re full of shit. I think that if you’re political activists, I’m Malcolm X. You don’t talk like activists. You don’t argue like activists. You don’t have the practical outlook God gave gravel. You don’t seem to understand that truth–the kind of truth that helps you form arguments and get things done–is never ever convenient. You are Internet warriors and chat room orators, and that is all you are.

You guys aren’t Trump voters. I might not like Trump, but those guys are tougher, smarter, more effective, and more willing to get things done than anyone on this board will ever be. Face it. Trump is an asshole, but they’re better than you. And they’re going to win. And it’s going to be your fault.

Your move, chief.

You’ve got a big fucking mouth and you talk a lot about how you’ve got everybody’s number. You love to admonish the lib-rubes and lavish praise on the Trump supporters. All the while flashing your democratic street cred and insulting Trump for bonus points. But for all the bluster, not once have I heard your brilliant fucking strategy for defeating Trump.

So let’s hear it, you loud mouthed braggart. What’s your brilliant fucking plan. And do go on at length. Wouldn’t dream of depriving you of a single moment to shine.

[Linty_Fresh]

@QuickSilver

You’ve got a big fucking mouth and you talk a lot about how you’ve got everybody’s number. You love to admonish the lib-rubes and lavish praise on the Trump supporters. All the while flashing your democratic street cred and insulting Trump for bonus points. But for all the bluster, not once have I heard your brilliant fucking strategy for defeating Trump.

Big mouth, huh? That’s rich coming from you. You don’t have any problem talking shit about Trump voters on the board, and I don’t see you holding anyone on your side to task, but I’m the braggart for disagreeing. And when did I ever claim to be an activist? I do what I can for whom I can. I don’t brag about it, because I like doing it.

And lavish praise on the Trump voters? You bet I do. Those guys fix my car, patch up our apartment, vaccinate my family, put out fires in our neighborhood, keep the place safe, and serve in the military. They’re good people. They go out of their way for others, even when they don’t have to. Their churches feed the poor. Their work helps the community.

What’s the last halfway strenuous thing you ever did that didn’t involve posting on this place with a mouthful of nachos? I might disagree with Trump supporters politically, but I will trust them in a crisis situation long before I trust anyone on this board.

So let’s hear it, you loud mouthed braggart. What’s your brilliant fucking plan. And do go on at length. Wouldn’t dream of depriving you of a single moment to shine.

No need to go on at length. You’ve got me. I don’t know. It’s too late. You show me how to unscramble the egg, I’ll show you how to fix this clusterfuck. The differences between us, QuickSilver is that I don’t blame everyone but myself and I don’t give people a pass just because I happen to agree with them on some stuff.

[Chingon]

I mean you just blamed other people… But u do u