heck, we still have 50,000 sitting in Germany and almost that same amount in Korea/Japan.
I agree, post them on the border and stop all this criminal activity from entering our country. They should’ve done that 35 years ago.
Well, fencing off the country and lining the border with soldiers and weapons always works out so well for the countries that have done it, or are trying to do it.
IMHO, eventually the US has to subsume Mexico non-militarily. I’m just not sure the best way to go about it.
You import and consume the drugs, you hire the undocumented. And that is all our fault? And we are the ones fucked up.
So far it seems like most who on this thread favor some kind of police/military action, takeover or invasion type of solution. Few if any seem to consider legalization as a better alternative.
Jesus, I wish we lived next door to Holland instead.
i favor legalization …
Well, hell, let’s bring them home too. But we’ve got to keep them in the service as there are NO civilian jobs for them. Or me.
I honestly doubt that legalization would do the trick. Given our propensity to tax and our propensity to worship profit, I believe the cartels would simply cut prices to be competitive with our legal drugs and the fight would continue, probably with increased police presence on our side----after all, we do tend to fight to protect profits.
are you talking about Die Berliner Mauer or something?
I’m not sure what your referencing but what’s going on in this country is rediculous and no, the gov’t has done virtually nothing about it.
yes they are taking our jobs and when they aren’t doing that they’re lowering wages for many americans. talk to anyone in the construction industry for instance.
and it’s not just picking crops either:
*Fellow Milwaukee police officers knew him as Jose Morales.
But after an anonymous phone tip this winter, an investigation revealed that the Morales in question is actually dead, and the officer is a cousin, Oscar Ayala-Cornejo, 24. He is an illegal immigrant from Mexico who had assumed Morales’s identity as a high school student in 1999.
In court papers filed June 15, Ayala-Cornejo agreed to plead guilty to a federal felony charge of falsely claiming to be a U.S. citizen. Under the plea agreement, he will face six to 12 months in jail. The charges can carry up to three years in prison and a $250,000 fine. Ayala-Cornejo has agreed to leave the United States after his jail term. A sentencing date has not been set. *
If the US legalized, we would legalize and so would many other countries. Cultivation of marijuana, coca and poppy would become legitimate and benefit local producers in many parts of the world and allow them to make an honest living. Of course the big drug companies would fight for control of the market but I doubt that would cause too many problems.
Legal activities are far easier to control than illegal activities. People will use drugs whether they are legal or not. Why not let the general public benefit through increased tax revenue and business opportunities?
I very much doubt this would happen. More importantly, the US is never going to legalize drugs. You know how many countries have legalized drugs? Zero. There no country in the world where drug consumption and trafficking are legal. The closest real world equivalent to what you suggest the US should do are certified narco-states (eg. Guinea-Bissau), places where possessing small amounts has been decriminalized (eg. Portugal), or places where the laws are rarely enforced (eg. The Netherlands). This fantasy that the US has a moral imperative to do what no other country in the world has done because Mexico can’t get their act together is completely disingenuous. More importantly, none of the above countries have succeeded in making drug trafficking unprofitable.
Manufacturing recreational drugs will never be seen as legitimate. Although the effects of drugs are overstated, selling poison to people will never be considered honorable work.
You duck my questions the last time, so let me pose them to you again.
Why is the US responsible for what happens in Mexico?
If market forces are largely responsible for the current violence in Mexico, why do we not see the this type of situation happening in various other countries around the world including Canada?
Why is Juarez one of the most dangerous cities in the world, whereas El Paso, just a 3 miles away (but on the US side of the border) one of the safest cities in the US?
Why did the drug violence in Mexico increase sharply roughly 4 years ago? What was the proximate cause?
Why is bribery seen as a way of life in Mexico? Why does Mexico have a history of corruption?
Why is your army favoring the Sinaloa Cartel in the drug cartel war?
Are you kidding? Alcohol and cigarettes are huge businesses throughout the world.
There is a cause and effect to everything. The huge consumption of illegal drugs is the reason the cartels even exist. Are you denying this?
Canada is not the major transit route for most of the illegal drugs entering your country. Canada and México are, the last time I looked, the only countries on your borders. Colómbia has all kinds of problems with violence. Brasil is seeing terrible levels of violence. I’m sure parts of Asia aren’t a walk in the park either. So if you aren’t seeing it is because you aren’t really looking.
I think we all know the answer to that. But can you explain why New Orleans is nearly as violent as Juárez?
Because we have an idiot running the country.
Your article is incorrect.
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2010/09/13/index.php?section=politica&article=007n2pol
I doubt very much you understand more Spanish than what you find on a Taco Bell menu but just look for the word Sinaloa.
And BTW, México decriminalized possession of small amounts of pot, heroin, cocaine, LSD and methamphetamines.
Well, forget about the tourists…the very premise of this thread is that Mexico is some kind of failed state or something, though that is belied by all that is in fact functioning in the huge, vast nation. A typical chilango in Mexico city can go about his life pretty much the same as someone in L.A., with about the same level of day-to-day exposure to drug violence. At the height of the Medellin and Cali cartels, Colombia had worse and more incidents, much more shocking. I lived there at the tail end of that, and I can attest that the narco-violence did not mean that the whole society had fallen apart. That’s what everyone in the States seemed to think, though, and it’s starting to be what they’re thinking about Mexico—selective reporting in the U.S. media just aggravates it, too. What changed in Colombia was pressure from the U.S. on the Colombian government to pursue human rights—not an invasion. I don’t think the U.S. government has even started to do that in Mexico. Remember that at that time (before the monetary sink-hole called Iraq was opened up), Colombia was the third largest recipient of U.S. aid (after Israel and Egypt). Mexico, however, gets its U.S. aid from two very different sources: drugs and remittances. In a way, the Mexican government doesn’t have to pay as much attention to the U.S. government as the Colombian government had to.
Here is a list of the world’s most dangerous cities, two of which are US cities. Detroit is listed as the second most dangerous city in the world.
http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-on-the-world-in-2010/
I wonder if brickbacon can explain how an American city that borders Canada can be so much more violent than its neighbor, Windsor?
And for those who say the violence in Colombía has ended, why is Colombía ranked the 2nd most dangerous country in the world?
http://www.worldinterestingfacts.com/human/top-10-most-dangerous-countries-in-the-world.html
Yes, because alcohol and cigarettes are just like heroin and meth.
I am denying that this is the reason the cartels exists as they do in Mexico. Tell me why the cartels don’t exist in the US? Surely it would make more sense for them to set up here rather than Mexico if all other things were equal. The issue is all other things aren’t equal. High consumption of drugs in the US may exacerbate Mexico’s problems somewhat, but it doesn’t cause them, nor does it institute your ineffective policies or foster an indifferent Mexican citizenry. You need to face the fact that lots of things happen in Mexico because of internal problems within your country. That doesn’t mean it always has to be that way, or that the people deserve it, or are individually responsible for it. However, the sad reality is that a lot pathologies have apparently just become a way of life there.
The US would never be okay with only 88% of our citizens having potable water. We would never allow a known fugitive to be elected to congress, then sneak in to take the oath so he could get immunity. We would never sanction a system where open bribes must occur for officials to do their jobs. We would not be okay with millions of our citizens risking their lives to sneak into another country to get a low-paying job and be subject to deportation and abuse. Those specific examples really underscore broad cultural trends in Mexico. When you have a situation where corruption and greed are not kept in check, it will manifest itself in many of the ways I mentioned above.
It’s not so much that we in the US are above such things, it’s just that the people (at least superficially) demand and expect better. As much as I would like to think we are exceptional in that way, the reality is that we, as people, are pretty similar all over the world. Mexico can be great if the environment changes. Until then, there is very little the US can do to help. Blaming us won’t help either. You guys aren’t puppets. Mexico’s per capita GDP is higher than all but 50 or so countries. Mexico is not a victim. Pretending that you are only serves to allows the problems to fester.
Why is Canada not a major transit route? Too cold? Surely some Canadian wants to be the next Joaquin Guzman Loera. Is it maybe because Canada would not allow that sort of thing to happen?
And yet, neither of those places are seeing the current levels of violence, and the brazen attacks on innocent civilians and police that we see in Mexico. Obviously there are more dangerous places in the world, but few places in the developed world have organized criminal gangs taking on the government with impunity.
It’s not. New Orleans’ murder rate is 52/100k people. Juarez is 230/100k people. Not. even. close. Nice try though. Besides even if they were close, you don’t see Americans blaming Mexico for not keeping New Orleans safe do you?
And yet he still has a 45.7% approval rating. Clearly not everyone agrees. I noticed you also didn’t actually answer the question. Ostensibly, the impetus for the OP was the current level of violence in Mexico. We have only seen this level of violence for roughly 4 years. Why is that the case? If America is largely responsible for the violence, then what did we do 4 years or so ago that precipitated it? Did demand increase? Did supply decrease? Or did your government write a check they couldn’t cash?
That article you linked to doesn’t undercut anything in the NPR article I linked to. Nobody said the army has never killed any Sinaloa Cartel members. But again, nice try.
And yet the US didn’t invade! :eek: Surely, we must have, right? I mean, like you said, the US would never allow such a thing.
Let me ask you another question. Why didn’t Mexico legalize drugs? If legalizing drugs is so easy, why hasn’t your own government done it?
Actually alcohol is worse. Your arguments are purely subjective.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/206300.php
You also dodged the Detroit question.
You also avoided addressing the fact that Colombía is ranked the second most dangerous country in the world. México doesn’t appear on the first ten. Brasil is also on the list so you show complete subjectivety and bias once again. You point to Juárez but can’t seem to accept the rest of the country has lower murder rates than many of your cities. The DF has a lower murder rate than your own capital.
Corruption thrives in your country. Your government legalized it. Can you say lobbyist? And the population has accepted the fact the USA is run by big corporations. Representative government you brag on is a joke.
Please learn how to imbed a link. Second, that study is looking at the overall (cumulative) harm these drugs have. It doesn’t (by design) account for the fact that far more people drink than smoke crack. The actual harm to the user is contained in the subdata. According to the authors:
The perception of a drug is usually a proxy for the damage it does to the user. The societal effects, while important, are highly variable, and subject to legislative and judicial action. The point being that in a hypothetical post-prohibition world, the local heroin dealer will not be viewed the same was a bartender currently is.
Actually, I didn’t see it when I posted. If the question is why Detroit is so dangerous, the answer is basically the same answer I gave to why Juarez is. It’s because the city has been allowed to decay. This is almost entirely the fault of the US. As I said before, clearly the US has problems like every country does. I choose not to take the cowardly way out by blaming others for our shortcoming and faults.
You are also avoiding the fact that nobody has seriously contended that all of Mexico is dangerous. Even when people, (myself included) have said “Mexico”, the context leads any fair-minded person without a chip on their shoulder (read: not you) to understand they are not referring the entire country, but specific hot spots mostly along the border that are overrun by thugs.
Both Columbia and Brazil have been dangerous for a while. Either way, if your standard for comparison are two notoriously dangerous countries far from your borders rather than your immediate neighbor, then I don’t know what to tell you. Both Brazil and Columbia have GDP per capita far less than Mexico. There is no reason to use those outliers to make your own country look better by comparison. That just shows how deluded you are.
Actually no. Learn what you speak of. A lobbying is not legalized corruption. If you really are trying to equate corruption in the US (which exists) with that in Mexico, you are seriously grasping at straws.
Detroit seems like a sucky comparison. It’s a scum pit, but I wouldn’t fear for my life if I had to travel there on business or something. It’s one city out of 300 million people in this country and a hell of a lot of towns.
Pretty much every large city has scummy neighborhoods. So what? Most large cities around the entire planet have scummy areas.
Mexico has the image of being a scummy country. Why is that? You don’t see refugees from Detroit fleeing to Canada. Why do so many Mexicans flee to America? Why don’t Mexicans just pack up and move someplace nicer within Mexico?
I know there are nice areas of Mexico, because lots of people go certain places there on vacation. Why are these areas nicer? Because foreigners go there a lot. That’s what I was getting at when I said the US has to subsume (am I using that word right?) Mexico. Mexico needs an influx of clean money and clean people with enough money to demand clean safe places to go.
Mexico needs to be gentrified, more or less. It happens here in the US all the time. An old scummy area gets some gays and artsy fartsy young people moving in, which makes an area trendy, and more money and business moves in and pretty soon you can hardly afford to live in what was once a scum pit. How do we gentrify Mexico? Make more safe, trendy areas that attract money. So open the borders and let lots of Americans and other nationalities in.
Look at Russia. We used to call it “Mexico with white people.” Why? Because it was dirt poor and talk about corruption and scary scary organized crime organizations. The place is developing so fast though, and Moscow is one of the most expensive places to live now.
What’s Russia got going for it that Mexico doesn’t?
Your government has an explicit policy of exporting its poor to the United States and openly meddles in our politics to prevent the federal government from taking effective action to control immigration. It seems that your mostly white ruling class wants to keep as much of the country’s wealth to themselves as possible rather than share any of it with their fellow Mexicans. America’s porous southern border serves as a safety valve that helps them get away with it. The policy is astonishly hypocritical as Mexico is very strict about enforcing its own immigration laws.
In terms of natural resources, Mexico is a wealthy country. There is no excuse for the crushing poverty that exists through out Mexico, and it is Mexico’s own ruling class which is responsible for it. Yet you vent your anger at the gringos.
And before you presume to preach at us for drug abuse, you need to take good at drug abuse in Mexico:
So, yeah, you are the ones who are fucked up.
That is just one example. Saint Louis, New Orleans, Newrak, and your own capital city all have high rates of violent crime. Washington has a higher murder rate than our capital city.
Tis part of your posts stinks of blatant racism. The attitude shown in your post mirrors the attitude your country has had toward México throughout our existence.
From the very beginning we were considered inferior and compared to lower life forms. Our culture, our religion and everything else has been viewed as morally inferior to that of the white protestant culture in the USA.
From the early days of our country when we were considered unworthy of possession of the vast tracts of land your country stole by force, when top American politicians called us savages or mongrels to Eisenhower’s “Operation wetback” and all kinds of despicable behavior by your country in bewteen, we have been considered scum by many in your country.
What is the saying in English? “The more things change, the more they stay the same” couldn’t be more approbriate.
Those vast tracts of land had hardly any Mexicans living in them. Most of the inhabitants were Indian tribes who didn’t recognize or accept the authority of the Mexican government. If we stole anything, and remember that the right of conquest was still recognized in those days, we stole it from those Indian tribes, not from Mexico. What’s more, the United States took the unusual step of paying Mexico millions of dollars to relinquish any claim to what is now the southwestern United States.
Operation Wetback was entirely legal, and entirely moral. We have every right to round up illegal aliens and deport them. And as I noted in my earlier post, Mexico is not the least bit reluctant to track down illegal aliens and get rid of them, so frankly you have a hell of a lot of gall to complain when we do it.
And considering what a mess you’ve made of Mexico, why do you assume you would have done any better with California?
Of course. I forgot my place. Forgive me. I bow to your superior morality.