What was the Big Bang before it Banged?

I’d like to hear someone more recently familiar with Hawkings’ book chime in. It must have been about twenty years or so since I read it–and I was a kid then so there’s no guarantee I understood a word of it–but I have always remembered it as saying something like what Ahunter here said–that possibly spacetime is curved in such a way that it makes sense to think of time as having passed more slowly back then.

I don’t understand how this is possible, but it is nevertheless what I think I recall having read in the book.

Although having just typed that, I’m starting to think maybe the book I’m thinking of is “Stephen Hawkings’ Universe” instead. Which if I recall correctly was a summary of the ideas in Brief History

Actually, it does. A good book to read is “A Short History of Nearly Everything.”

It was SentientMeat who finally convinced me of this, by arguing that there is no difference between the absence of time and time passing but without any change.

From this thread

Also worth a visit is this thread: A shy at “The universe has always existed” - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

Could be. I only read Brief History and can’t say that I remember it that well. I just flipped through my copy, though, and found nothing remotely equivalent. I could still be wrong, I suppose. It was quick.

However, many of the notions Hawking espoused 20 or more years ago are not well thought of today. This could be one of them.

Please note, everyone, that most major physicists have notions that turn out not to be well supported. This is normal and does not diminish their better work. I caught stuff even in my quick flip that is pretty well discarded today, not all of it his theories.

enipla, any decent popular science book on the origins and development of the universe will trace the formation of matter, often with great beauty and wonder. I make no secret that I dislike trying to cram a book’s worth of slow development of difficult concepts into a paragraph on a message board.

I think there’s two concepts being conflated here – one is the familiar GR gravitational time dilation, i.e. the ‘slowing down’ of time due to gravitation (and hence, the local mass/energy density). This is a real enough effect, however, as Exapno already pointed out, time always passes at a rate of one second per second to the local observer, so you don’t observe any difference when you are actually in a place where time runs slower; any difference is only obvious to an external observer, of which, if the time is slowed throughout the whole universe due to the higher energy density closer to the Big Bang, there aren’t any.

The other concept is that of imaginary time, which I believe Hawking refers to a couple of times in Brief History (it’s been a while since I read it). I’m not really sure how best to explain this, though it’s not, in principle, very difficult. I’ll have to take a bit of a round-about approach to this.

In our familiar, three-dimensional space, the (square of) the distance of two things is given by the equally familiar Pythagorean ds[sup]2[/sup] = dx[sup]2[/sup] + dy[sup]2[/sup] + dz[sup]2[/sup]. (Strictly speaking, the 'd’s mean that this is an ‘infinitesimal’ distance, from which an actual macroscopic distance may be obtained via integration, but this isn’t really important to the topic at hand.) This is what characterizes our 3D-space as Euclidean.

Now, some time after Einstein formulated his special theory of relativity, Minkowski realized that it can be very elegantly and easily expressed in a space where the (squared) ‘distance’ between two events works out to ds[sup]2[/sup] = dx[sup]2[/sup] + dy[sup]2[/sup] + dz[sup]2[/sup] - dt[sup]2[/sup], incorporating the time coordinate t and thus giving rise to the concept of ‘spacetime’.

This expression can be translated into the familiar Euclidean one by performing what’s called a Wick rotation – essentially, you substitute τ = it (i being the so-called imaginary unit satisfying i[sup]2[/sup] = -1 – this also explains calling the operation a rotation, since, in the complex plane, the imaginary numbers are on an axis perpendicular to the real number line) to obtain ds[sup]2[/sup] = dx[sup]2[/sup] + dy[sup]2[/sup] + dz[sup]2[/sup] + dτ[sup]2[/sup]; this is what Hawking means with ‘imaginary time’. The reason for doing this, basically, is that it sometimes makes calculation simpler, and you can analytically continue the results from your ‘imaginary time’ calculation back into ‘real’ time.

In a sense, such an imaginary time spacetime now is nothing else but a (four dimensional) ordinary (as in, Euclidean) shape, and we get a degree of intuitiveness from that – we can imagine spacetime as being, for instance, a sphere, with the imaginary time coordinate corresponding to degrees of latitude, which is basically where that whole ‘before the Big Bang = north of the North Pole’ notion comes from; this also shows in an analogical way how to get rid of the singularity at the Big Bang – after all, the North Pole on Earth is a perfectly regular point, as well.

Somewhat more specific, the Wick rotation is used especially heavily in quantum theory, turning a Minkowskian path integral into an Euclidean one, which has the advantage that certain divergences (singularities) can be avoided (path integrals, I should perhaps note, are essentially an alternative formulation of quantum mechanics, replacing the notion of a unique trajectory for some particle/general system with a summation over infinitely many possible trajectories). Hartle and Hawking brought forward a proposal to compute the wave function of the universe using this formalism, called the ‘no-boundary proposal’, which describes a universe that, like a sphere, has no boundaries and thus, no singular beginning (or end).

I hope I got this at least approximately right; I’d welcome anybody with more expertise chiming in.

Time is simply a measure of change. If something is changing - for example, if the position of an atom in space moves from point A to point B, then you have time. This concept of time = change is how we measure the length of a day - the time it takes for the earth to complete a full revolution on its axis. Because the earth is revolving at what appears to be an almost constant speed, it’s a very reliable measure of time.

So far, I follow.

Lets say you are put in a space ship and you get hurtled through space at almost the speed of light. The “speed” of every single atom and vibrating quark within, and including the space ship, slows right down. This causes the clock to tick slower. It causes you to move slower. But you don’t perceive the change, because everything has slowed down relative to each other. However, to a casual observer who is not hurtling through space at the speed of light but able to somehow watch you, you would be moving in super-slow motion. If you, in the space ship, could somehow observe this outside observer, they would be moving in fast-forward.

So far, so good. I follow. I understand what it means to say that time slows down, and time speeds up. Now, can someone please explain:

Time bends?!
Time goes forwards and backwards?!

No. It’s true that they would observe you moving in super-slow motion. But YOU would observe THEM moving in super-slow motion as well.

If you’re moving at a constant velocity, you will always perceive time flowing normally in your own reference frame and flowing more slowly for everyone else.

“But isn’t this a paradox?” you might ask. “What happens if I meet up with the observer later? If I think more time has passed for me, and he thinks more time has passed for him, which one of us is right?”

Ah, but in order for you to meet up, one of you has to accelerate! He has to get in a rocket and fly after you and catch you. Or you have to turn around and fly back to meet him. And clocks always run more slowly in accelerated frames of reference (or in gravitational fields, which is the same thing).

As long as you’re cruising at a constant velocity, you see his clock running slower. But as soon as you switch on your engines to reverse course, you see him speed up and start moving in fast forward. And he’ll continue moving in fast-forward until you match speeds with him and you’re both moving in the same frame of reference.

I think we’re talking about different things. You’ve taken a (quite legitimate) literal view of it. Meaning that if I were accelerating away from you, and we were watching each other through a ridiculously high powered telescope, we’d appear to be in slow motion to each other. That’s correct. But let’s say there was an “outside observer” who could watch whichever part of the universe he wanted to in real-time, the accelerating person would be “moving slower” than the stationery person.

There is no such thing as an “outside observer”. All reference frames operate under identical rules.

Be sure you’re not confusing acceleration and velocity. If you’re accelerating away from me, you WON’T see me moving in slow motion. You’ll see me moving in fast forward because the acceleration you’re experiencing slows down your clock.

However, if you’re not accelerating, but moving at a very fast fixed velocity away from me, things are different. You’ll see me moving in slow motion and I’ll see you moving in slow motion. If you pick an “outside observer” what he sees is determined by his motion relative to us. If he’s stationary relative to you, he sees things like you do. If he’s stationary relative to me, he sees things like I do. But there’s no correct, absolute frame of reference. Either perspective is just as valid.

But as we get further away from each other, the photons of light are taking longer to reach each other, which will cause a slow down effect. Like listening to a car horn of an approaching car, and a car moving away.

Alright, forget about what we could actually “see”, because I think this is where the confusion is happening, as we’re using different sets of variables. The person moving at a very fast velocity would be moving slower, with a slower ticking watch on his wrist, then the person who is stationery. If the speeding person took a bit of a joyride around space at near the speed of light, and then returned to where the stationery person was standing all along, the watch of the person who sped around for a bit would be behind the stationary person’s watch, even if they both read exactly the same time before the joyride began.

Thus far, I follow.

But I’d like to know what time bending is, and how time can move in different directions.

Right. Special relativity describes the equivalence of inertial frames of reference. An accelerating frame of reference is not inertial. An accelerating frame is always distinguishable from an inertial frame. So a frame accelerating (due to rocket, or orbit, or gravitational well) will always appear to be running slow compared to an inertial frame, and the inertial frame will appear to be running fast compared to the accelerating observer.

should read…

No. Even if we take the increased transit times of the photons into account, the difference in time flow is still there. You move slowly relative to me, and I move slowly relative to you.

How do tell who is stationary and who is moving?

Yes. But only because in order to turn around and come back, the traveller has to accelerate. It’s the turning around that sets the traveller’s watch back, not the fact that he was moving so fast.

This is a lot easier to understand if you start out only looking at the constant velocity case. Introducing acceleration makes it harder.

No, you’re not really getting it yet.

Time and space are interchangable. If you look at something from one perspective, it might look like something is moving through time. Look at it from a different perspective and it might look like its moving through space. Neither interpretation is more “correct” than the other.

And at the subatomic level the arrow of time is much less certain. An electron moving forward in time looks just like a positron moving backwards.

Ok… looks like I don’t get it. “Turning around” is what effects the watch, not the traveling at near speed of light? I’m lost.

Turning around is a variety of acceleration. Acceleration is a change in velocity, which is speed IN A GIVEN DIRECTION.

Right, but I always thought it was the traveling at high speed that slowed down time, it appears as though The Hamster King is saying that it’s something else that slows down time - acceleration, turning around, or something

Okay, let’s talk about the constant velocity case first.

Imagine we’re both in spacesuits, floating in space. The space suits have big digital clocks on the front so we can see how time is flowing for each other.

If we’re just floating next to each other, the clocks tick in sync. My time flows at the same rate as your time.

Now imagine I’m moving really fast. I zoom past you at nearly the speed of light. What do we each see?

When you look at me as I zip past you notice that the clock on my chest is running slow compared to yours. For every one tick of my clock, yours ticks three times. And this effect is not caused by any doppler shift or other artifact of the photons that are travelling from me to you. Even when you take that into account, my clock is still running slower. Time flows more slowly for me than for you.

But what do I see? I see exactly the same thing! For every one tick of YOUR clock, my clock ticks three times. Again, this effect is not caused by the photons that communicate this information. Time flows more slowly for you than for me.

At first this seems crazy. It would make sense if time was flowing fast for me and slow for you, or vice versa, but how can time be flowing slow for both of us?

If you think about it some more, though, you realize that it has to be this way. If it’s just the two of us floating in space how do we know which one of us is moving and which one is standing still? From both of our perspectives the situation is identical – all of a sudden a spacesuited figure appears out of the void and zooms past. To you it looks like I’m moving. And to me it looks like you’re moving. But either interpretation is equally valid.

This is possible because time and space are the same thing. If you look at an event from one perspective, you might see motion through space. If you look at it from a different perspective, you might see motion through time. Neither is “correct”. They’re just different coordinate systems applied to the same underlying motion.

In your coordinate system, you’re stopped in space and moving normally through time. While I’m moving rapidly through space and moving slowly through time.

But in my coordinate system, I perceive exactly the opposite. I’m stopped in space and moving normally through time. And you’re moving rapidly through space and moving slowly through time.

There’s no point asking which one of us is “really” slowed down. We’re in separate reference frames, so the meaning of time and space is different for each of us.

Thanks for the lengthy explanation, but I still don’t get it.

Check.

Here’s where the first question mark pops in to my head. Would I also see you zoom past “slower” than you actually are? So when you appear as though you are right next to me, you’ve actually already shot well past me?

Now, when you introduce acceleration, things get funkier.

Acceleration always slows down time. But unlike the effect we see with velocity, it’s not symmetrical. If I’m accelerating relative to you, I know it’s me that’s doing the accelerating because I can feel the G forces pressing on me.

So if I start accelerating, I’ll see your clock speed up. And you’ll see my clock slow down.

There’s the classic thought problem with the space-travelling twin who returns home to discover that his brother is an old man. It’s usually explained that time flows more slowly for the travelling twin. But that’s not strictly true. Time only flows more slowly for the travelling twin while he has his rockets switched on. If he switches his rockets off and coasts, he will see time flowing more slowly for his stay-at-home brother. If he never turns around and goes home, but just peers back at Earth through his high-power telescope as he coasts farther and farther away, it will seem to him like he’s the old man, while his brother remains perpetually young.

Grr … provided an example and got the math wrong.