What we believe or why we believe it

See Delayed Reflex - above

If that is the point they are making then they are doing a much poorer job than you of doing so.

I freely confess that I have not run the experiments and analysed the data for 99.99% of the facts that ultimately govern my life. Nor has anyone.
However, I could. And others have, and have done so by means of the scientific method.

I disagree, it is because those facts work, both theoretically and practically. The trust in people is irrelevant and the trust in the method is what matters.

Is the scientific method the means by which we uncover facts about the world?

Yes, to some degree of accuracy.

How much of what we know is the result of the scientific method. How much of our knowledge base is ‘fact’?

I’m not sure that anything we consider to be a fact has not been confirmed as such by the scientific method.

Are you aware of anything? I am not.

Ok so I can see how our reality is based on our perceptions and learned experience. After all, I have no way of knowing what I see as green isn’t what someone else sees as red or a third person sees as purple. We have our own frame of reference in that respect, same for how we identify smells or flavors or what have you. It is our own brain processing and interpreting the signals taken in by our sensory inputs. In that sense our perceptions are relative, because all we can do is point to something and say “this is green” or “this is what garlic smells like” and as long as those remain internally consistent, we have no way of knowing if our absolute perceptions are different from someone else’s.

Nevertheless, we know that specific colors represent specific wavelengths on the electromagnet spectrum, or that smells and tastes are made up of specific chemicals in relative proportions. That humans perceive those colors different than cows or squids, or that dogs can detect scents orders of magnitude smaller than humans doesn’t matter. There’s still real physical demonstrable processes at work. The universe doesn’t care that we call hydrogen hydrogen, but it’s still a specific element with specific measurable properties. How exactly we measured those properties, or how we conceptualize them doesn’t matter. They are what they are, and those are facts.

The OP addresses what we believe and why. Are all our beliefs based on fact. If not then what percent.

The nature of the oblate spheroid for the shape of the earth has not been completely confirmed. It is an approximation.

That wasn’t the line of discussion I was persuing.

I think it is obviously the case that not all beliefs held by humans are based on objectively verifiable facts,
I have no idea what percentages are involved.
it is obviously true that some people hold beliefs that are directly contradicted by objectively verifiable facts and such facts are not in any way affected by those beliefs. i.e. That some people hold a belief in special creation does not in any way make the verifiable scientific fact of evolution any less solid.

I guess I just don’t know what point you are trying to make. At this point I don’t even know if we have any substantive points of disagreement.

What do you mean by “the nature”? Are you suggesting that the earth is not confirmed as an oblate spheroid?

I mean, of course it is an approximation, the earth is not a perfect geometric shape.

So, what is factual? that the shape of the earth approximates an oblate spheroid?

I was trying to come up with another fact. Most data sheets for semiconductor devices are statistical approximations.

You’ve completely lost me I’m afraid. I have no idea what you are trying to say and no interest in trying to take it any further as you don’t seem willing to answer fairly straightforward questions.

Sorry, your basic question was more of a statement:

Everything we accept as fact was gained by the scientific method.

I agree that there is a body of knowledge that has been tested by the scientific method. That body of knowledge is not accepted as factual by a majority of the population of the US.

If you think, or believe your perception is 100% accurate then you are probably someone who readily holds beliefs with a non-factual basis. We don’t need absolute knowledge to separate fact from fiction. The earth is not flat even if we can’t observe it’s entirety with or own eyes.

I think (or believe) that we are not born with beliefs, but develop them throughout our lives. Mostly they are installed in us by authority figures or strong (or repeated) reference experiences.
By creating reference experiences or having interactions with authority figures, we can create different beliefs. And if we choose those reference experiences or authority figures, we can choose our beliefs in certain areas.

Not sure what you mean by “bad” reasons. I think the distinction should rather between useful or not useful (in the utilitarian sense of maximising our happiness) or maybe even between affecting my life or not. If I believe that Orion’s Belt has 4 stars, it does not affect my life one bit (except in my relationship with astronomers).

If I believe that I am a nice person and people are generally kind, I will have a better social life than if I believed the opposite.
I don’t know what the reality is when we look at people as unbiased observers, but I know that I have a more fulfilled social life than the Uniqueorn who believes that people are mean.

How did I choose this belief? By collecting lots of reference experiences and forcing myself to look for positive examples.

I hear what you are saying but don’t think that is choosing the belief per se, you are choosing to open up to certain lines of evidence but I think that is subtley different to choosing the actual belief.

For instance, As an atheist I don’t think I am capable of choosing to believe in a god for the next 30 minutes and then choosing to discard that belief.
If beliefs truly were chosen then it would be trivially easy to do so.

Believing something for a bad reason would be along the lines of “because it makes me feel good” or “because this book/person says so” without any other evidentiary basis.

Maximizing your happiness may come (temporarily) from believing you’re going to win the lottery, or go to Heaven, but you’re setting yourself up for a big disappointment later on when those things don’t happen. They also affect you in the here and now. “Why save money for retirement when I’m going to be a millionaire?” Holding beliefs like that, along with the Orion’s Belt thing, makes you more likely to believe other things for bad reasons, like the Nigerian prince, or the extended warranty company.

If you ARE a nice person you’ll have a better social life. If you delude yourself into believing you are when you aren’t, that can be even worse than being a jerk because a jerk that’s self-aware is at least honest. Also, you know that not all people are nice, and it’s fine to give people you don’t know the benefit of the doubt, but a little cynicism can be a beneficial defense strategy against being taken advantage of (see the Nigerian prince again).

Some people find it trivially easy to change their beliefs, or at least say that they do. Clearly though, whatever they are changing likely does not qualify according to a reasonable definition of a belief. That doesn’t rule out an occasional epiphany that results in a change of a substantial belief, but there are dishonest sorts like politicians and very shallow people who hold no real serious beliefs, and simply acquiesce to others and are not sincere in their professed beliefs.

For example:

“The Earth is not turning!”

You can prove it to yourself with a precision gyroscope.

A good gyroscope will maintain its orientation no matter the G-force in space.

If the earth is turning you would see 1 degree every 4 min. in precession.

On a stand that moves 1 degree in 8 min, see if you can get precession in the good gyroscope.

You will not, so the Earth is not turning.

Prove it to yourself and get out of the lie.

What church has a biblical definition of what saving faith is and what belief is?

Do they know “the faith of God”? Rom. 3:3 KJV

Do they know “the faith of Jesus”? Gal. 2:16 KJV

Faith means “to bring to belief”.

Faith is a work. See 1 Thess. 1:3

The church should know we are not saved by works, so saving faith must be His work in us to cause us to believe and not with a make-believe belief.

Faith is His work of assurance to cause us to believe God has raised Him from the dead.

When people do not know His faith they can only know their own faith. They may try to drum up their faith with religious works or rituals or with loud music repeated over and over again.

Can you see the atheist are closer to the truth in knowing God is not real to them than unsaved religious people with a make-believe believing.

Unsaved religious people can choose and make Jesus the true object of their faith just like the unsaved religious people that worship idols made of stone or wood.

Religion is man choosing Jesus but what counts is God choosing you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw**(G1670)** him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That word translated draw is more like drag, with the force of His will. See how that Greek word is used.

Without His work of faith in you, your work of faith is in vain.

Salvation is all His work and all His glory.

We know many will be deceived into thinking they are saved but will not be.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophecies in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(How would you develop these thoughts?)

I tend to believe things that derive from what I believe are reputable sources. I’m more inclined to believe a news story from The New York Times for example, than The National Enquirer (although their story “Human Brain Successfully Transplanted into Gorilla Body…[the brain was too big for the gorilla skull, so he is kinda stupid]” was pretty convincing). :grinning:

Likewise, I put more weight into some tidbit I read in a peer-reviewed journal like Nature over something ChadTheIdiot posts on Tic Tok. I rarely put 100% blind faith into even claims made under rigorous scientific scrutiny because sometimes even peer-reviewed researchers get it wrong, too.

Otherwise, I tend to believe things that make logical sense to me. I have a pretty firm background in science/medicine for example, so I don’t need or want input from non-scientifically inclined people to help make logical sense to me. I also assume that most people are stupid.

Lastly, I’m more likely to believe things that I want to believe. For example, there is no evidence one way or another for extra-terrestrial life. I want to believe extraterrestrial life exists, so unless evidence emerges to the contrary, I believe it exists.