The panel thing was merely an example of their lack of imagination and craftmanship in relation to the comic medium, not the basis of my criticism (and I’m sure you knew that).
I don’t think your criticism has any basis whatsoever, so yes. 
Watterson does the same stuff over and over again. And its amusing stuff. But he just writes in circles. I never know what Tycho’s written for PA each day. Soem few common threads, but they make a consistent effort to be fresh.
And, aesthetically? I like Gabe’s art better than Watterson’s in most regards.
:eek:
Did you see VG Cats? You proabably missed the VG Cats link. It’s there on the second post. Keep in mind the current strip isn’t very representative of its quality. Look at some of the ones in the archive.
Oh, I see, you just don’t get the references. Yeah, you have to be pretty familiar with the subject matter in order to understand most of the gags. That’s why.
Seriously though, you can’t deny the guy’s talent. He’s one of the few webcomic authors with professional understanding of the comics medium. And studying his progress by going through his archives chronologically is quite inspirational. He didn’t just start drawing better, he really started to wield better control over his craft as if he was an apprentice to a previous comics master.
Perhaps paradoxically, I’ve never thought the actual art of a webcomic made or broke it, unless it was stupefyingly, terribly bad. Wit and writing ability count for so much more. Thus, Casey & Andy and Order Of The Stick are two of my favorite strips, and I can’t stand reading Sinfest and PvP these days.
I actually have one of the Order of the Stick books, and it reads fantastically in print. It’s actually all original comics, rather than a reprint of the website. Because Rich Burlew wasn’t constrained by the MWF schedule, he came up with a great storyline and was able to do things with the comic format that few artists are able to pull off.
Also, Tales of the Questor is a well-written and well-drawn epic tale. It’s told in serial format, but all the individual stories contribute to the overarching plot. It’s hilarious and moving and is a great fantasy comic. I could easily see it produced as a graphic novel.
In your later posts, you seem to be defining a “talking head” strip as one in which there’s very little dynamic movement. This strikes me as odd, because the very first Casey and Andy strip starts with Andy juggling, and ends with an anti-matter explosion. The comic regularly features some fairly complex action scenes. Weir’s art isn’t the best out there, but it’s consistent - there’s never any confusion over who you’re looking at, or what they’re supposed to be doing. And the writing is absolutely top-notch, unlike VGCats, which while beautifully drawn, is very hit-or-miss, and often requires some pretty arcane knowledge of video game history. I like the comic, don’t get me wrong, but its subject matter, presentation (it’s a pretty filthy comic), and sporadic updating make is a spectacularly bad choice to transfer to the comics page.
Mind, I don’t think that’s an especially desirable goal. It’d be better to find a reliable revenue model for online comics. A few have been able to do this. PvP and Penny Arcade are the frontrunners in this, but RK Milholland has been making a living off donations to Something Positive for a couple years now, and there are a few very cheap paysites that offer access to a wide variety of comics for a small monthly fee. Graphic Smash has a huge amount of amazing comics: Ursula Vernon’s Digger, Ted Slampyak’s '30s era magic-and-mystery story comic Jazz Age, Stephen Crowley’s superhero soap opera Magellan, or T. Campbell’s spy drama Rip and Teri. I also subscribe to Modern Tales, pretty much exclusively for Shaenon Garrity’s Narbonic, which is just about the best standard-format comic strip I’ve ever read. It’s available in collections (only two so far) and is going to be ending sometime later this year or early next year. Modern Tales has a lot of other content (and is edited by the inestimable web comics guru Eric Burns) but nothing besides Narbonic has really grabbed me yet.
Some other comics I really enjoy: Shortpacked is a great gag strip set in a toy store.
The Midlands is a very story-and-character based strip that can be perfectly described as “lesbian cyber-punk elves,” and yet that so totally fails to capture what the comic is really about. Like a lot of comics, it started out very rough, until the author finds his voice, and is very text heavy. The last year or so, he’s been doing an interesting thing where each panel is accompanied by a running internal commentary from one of the characters in the panel. Takes a bit to get used to, but the effect is pretty interesting once you get comfortable with it. Warning: frequently contains nudity, so be careful about reading it at work.
Jeph Jacques indie-music obessesed Questionable Content is a gorgeous, funny relationship strip. The major stort arc from last year was THE event in webcomics at the time.
Rich Burlew’s The Order of the Stick has some great table-top gaming humor, but also enough story and character to draw in the average non-D&D enthusiast. I love the deceptively simply stick-figure art, which communicates an amazing amount of emotion, detail, and action in.
Achewood is… well, it’s Achewood. I don’t know how to describe it any better than that. Chris Onstad delivers the creepiest laughs in webcomics.
Anyway, that’s just some of the highlights out there. All of those comics deserve to be published in pulped-tree format (and many already have been), although most aren’t newspaper friendly.
Can you refine what you mean by a “professional understanding of the comics medium?”
Thumbs-up, Miller, for thoroughness.
I also want to point out that PA is home to the sporadic but dynamic Cardboard Tube Samurai strips, which contain action sequences, well-depicted.
C’mon, a comic strip that has Cthulhu working in Tech Support - guaranteed success!
Simply that he seems to know the ins and out of the medium. Like I stated earlier, comics seem simple - drawings in chronological order to tell a story (or a joke). So you get a bunch of people who know nothing about comics thinking they can do it.
It’s like a guy with a great story deciding to tell it cinematically because he has a camcorder and thinks moviemaking is nothing more than recording action on film or tape. Through clumsy blocking, excessive dialogue, akward timing, and ineffective lighting, he might technically get his story across, and might even have a fanbase of people who liked his admittedly interesting story idea but are indiscriminating in regards to the film craft, but objectively it won’t be a good effort.
VG Cats’ author is like a promising indie filmmaker in a world of navel-gazing slackers with camcorders. In fact, he was once one of them, but he decided to study the classics, learn from them, and incorporate that knowledge into his craft. I don’t know much comic-related terminology to describe his talent without the filmmaking analogy that I gave, but it’s obvious that he knows what he’s doing.
Look at the River City Ransom example you linked to. It doesn’t even have dialogue. That’s unheard of on a web full of writers who can’t draw, but will if they have to. Look at the dramatic pose Leo takes when he spies the thug. Yes, it’s a manga convention, but it’s not gratutitous, it’s effective. He incorporates it into his style seamlessly, and it takes confidence in one’s skill in the medium to pull that off. And can you deny the pefection of the timing demonstrated in each panel of that strip?
Anyway, from the links you provided, it looks like you know more about this stuff than I do.
I’m suprised not a single person has yet to mention 8-bit theater…but then I haven’t kept up with that comic for a bout a year now. But still, when I did read it, a single comic could have me in stiches for up to a week.
Has it gone down hill, or is it now passe?
Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. To be in the newspaper, you need a moment (a punchline, preferably) every day. Webcomics, which come with their archives attached, can afford to be long-form.
Webcomics also tend to exploit the flexibility of their form, by changing dimensions, adding animation, or using non-line art. Many would suffer in a newspaper format.
And then there’s the lesson of Frank Cho, whose Liberty Meadows got censored constantly in the newspapers.
Anyway, if newspaper readership weren’t declining precipitously in this country, the newspaper might be a good form of exposure for some cartoonists. The candidates, chosen for their wit & ability to work within a strict format:
Little Dee --I think this has been published somewhere. It’s amazingly good.
Sinfest --too edgy for the newpapers, what with God, the Devil, & those oversexed kids, but brilliant.
Ozy and Millie --this really needs the exposure. Great strip.
The New Adventures of Death --a bit different, but not unworkable in a paper.
Wapsi Square --not an especial fave of mine, but suited in style to newspapers.
I didn’t list Questionable Content because the papers wouldn’t take to Jeph’s large-panel form.
I wouldn’t mind Gisèle Lagacé getting more exposure, but her kind of emotionally invested work might not work for newpaper editors.
Thanks for getting me to go back through my list of webcomics! I’ve been ignoring most of them.
Crap, I meant to add “tediously static shots” to round out the analogy.
I won’t deny that Ramskoonir is talented, I’m just curious if you can give a specific example of something he knows how to do that other webcomics don’t. You’ve put a lot of emphasis on kinetic action, but historically, that’s never been an essential element of cartooning. There’s an entire subgenre of webcomics that purposefully use entirely static grahpics to tell their jokes. Dinosaur Comics, for example, is a hilarious, highly erudite comic that consists of exactly the same six panels of art, everyday. Lore Brand Comics, by Lore Sjoberg of Brunching Shuttlecocks fame, uses similar minimalist art, although with some variation. These are excellent comics, at least as judged by the most important standard for a humorous strip: they make me laugh.
It’s not that unusual, really.
Considering that his style is heavily influence by manga, that’s not really very surprising. I’m not sure what’s so dramatic about the pose, either.
Yeah, pretty much. It’s a bad strip on just about every level except the art: it makes no sense if you’re not familiar with the original game, and if you are familiar with the original game, it’s not very funny. The whole point of the comic is basically, “Hey, remember this obscure NES game?” The comic doesn’t really do anything beyond that. Really not up to his usual standards.
Incidentally, if you want an example of a comic artist who really knows the roots of the genre, I have to re-recommend Shaenon Garrity’s Narbonic. As should surprise no one, Eric Burns describes why far better than I ever could.
Um, I’m not sure how I inserted “newspaper” into my reading of the question. But I stand by my post.
Print in general? Well, a lot of webcomix do have collections available. I don’t see that it’s a big deal. So the question is, which do I think are good enough to get in bookstores?
Other than those I linked above, I’d at least consider Cat and Girl, Sluggy Freelance, & Bobbins. I only say I’d consider it. The world doesn’t desperately need trees to die for these. Though Bobbins is really cool.
On the other hand. Girl Genius, which someone else mentioned, is a good idea. And the PPG Doujinshi, but I don’t see much hope for that.
I’d say it’s as good as it ever was. It’s still one of my favorites. I didn’t intend to list exhaustively though.
I know. Neither Chris Ware nor Daniel Clowes are known for their animated drawing styles (Clowes’s older work was more animated, actually), but they’re arguably the most respected names in their field. They’re still, somehow, effectively re-create life in their comics.
Ramskoonir can draw, his comics read well, they look great, he actually has a concept of timing, and he effectively wields all the tools in the comics toolbox. He’s not afraid to alternate panel sizes, or stray from a strict format of merely characters within panels speaking with their dialogue trapped by word ballons. He knows how to use narration, he’s economical in that he choses just the right moments and poses to display in order to convey the action effectively, he just knows what he’s doing.
Look at this one. His angry alter ego is given a brooding gray abstract background. When he shouts “Fuck Inuyasha”, Inuyasha is shown with a calm blue abstract background that’s a bit shorter than the previous, and constricts further in the next panel to coincide with her (his? I don’t watch the show), and the audience’s startle. I’m not saying this shows that he’s a genius, but it shows that he’s knowledgable enough to know that he can alter the background that way to help convey the mood he wants to. Those who know nothing about comics wouldn’t know that they could do that, and they give us stuff like Casey and Andy. I’m not saying that a comic author has to employ tricks like that either, but that he does is indicative that he knows what he’s doing.
…I…see. Well, that goes back to be indiscriminating about the medium. There’s no reason for the jokes in Lore Brand Comics to be told in comic format. And that dinosaur one is horrible looking. Comics are a visual medium. Why are you acting like the artwork is secondary?
Fine. You’ve come across a different set of webcomics then I have. Most I’ve seen can’t get away with no dialogue simply because the artists can’t draw.
What do you mean? The pose is dramatic because it expresses his shock. I’m not implying any special qualities beyond that. I wasn’t using the word to praise.
And how does that make the comic bad? Yes, its main point is to rouse nostalgia, but furthermore, it’s to poke fun at the game’s bizarreness by placing characters we already identify with into its universe. RCR was a game in which you fought thugs armed with weapons such as knives, but in an extremely cartoony universe. The strip points out this absurdity by adding natural gore where in the game there was none. It was also a two player game where you can pick up fallen characters, including the other player, and use them as blunt weapons. That hardly needs much parody but again, the main characters’ involvement in the action helps magnify its insanity. It was effective in its purpose, there’s nothing bad about it.
Haven’t read the link yet, so I can’t comment. Maybe later.
No argument from me there, I just don’t think he’s at all exceptional in that regard. There are a lot of incredibly talented people doing webcomics these days.
Well, that’s certainly one tool that’s available to a cartoonist, but it’s not a terribly unusual one. Anyone who’s read Scott McCloud’s Understanding Comics is going to be familiar with it, which I daresay is about 90% of the people drawing regular webcomics. Casey and Andy employs it regularly, especially in the use of background color to demonstrate emotion. Ramsoomair is better at it, I won’t argue that, but it’s not like Andy Weir doesn’t have this tool in his toolbox.
There’s no reason for the jokes in Lore Brand Comics not to be told in a comic format. I’m confused by this idea that medium dictates content. Should movies only be car chases and explosions? Should music only be rhythm and dance beats?
Because sometimes, it is. Comics are both a visual and a textual medium. Wether to focus on the text or the visuals is up to the individual artist, and a decision in either direction does not invalidate the comic. I enjoy good art, but I like good writing better. Andy Weir is never going to be half the artist that Scott Ramsoomair is, but he’s twice the writer. His comics are more reliably funny, with stronger characterizations, and more ambitious story arcs. As far as the writing goes, Ramsoomair has never even attempted anything as challenging as Casey and Andy. And Weir’s still a lightweight compared to folks like RK Milholland, Jeph Jacques, or Pete Abrams.
I guess I think of a dramatic pose as being something more like the middle two panels of this comic. Standing around with your mouth open doesn’t really bring the drama, for me. But that’s a niggling point.
But the comic doesn’t do anything with that absurdity beyond what the game was already doing. It’s exactly the same as the game, except it’s got blood (oooh! Edgy!) and anthropomorphic cats. A good parody takes an absurd concept and does something completely unexpected with it, such as in this Penny Arcade comic, which takes the pretty silly idea of a game combining Square Soft and Disney characters in a direction that would give the legal departments of both companies conniptions.
Ha! I sincerley doubt that. If they have, they’d have enough respect for comics to either give up or get better. There’s no reason Casey and Andy’s writer can’t hook up with a talented artist. If he cared enough about his product, he would.
Okay, I didn’t only talk about color. Most strips are still constrained to six identical panels paced symetrically. And when the backgrounds are always just a single color, it’s not special when the color changes for mood.
The reason is that the jokes haven’t been adapted to justify them being in the form of a comic. It means a movie shouldn’t be a five hour shot of a guy telling a story orally. It means a person shouldn’t merely record themselves reading a poem and try to sell it as a “song”.
Since a comic can be a comic without words, and not the other way around, I’d say the visual aspect is always the most important.
And yet, Scott Ramsoomair produces a better product. It doesn’t matter how well Weir writes, as long as Casey and Andy looks the way it does, it’s a bad comic that’s not worth reading.
Sarcastically downplay the blood if you want, it was an effective part of the gag. And the anthropomorphic cats aren’t just random anthropomorphic cats, they’re the main characters - i.e., us. If we were happily skipping down the street and saw a thug stabbing someone, we’d be as shocked as Leo, but in the game, it was normal. You don’t think about that when you’re playing the game, but when the author puts us in that situation, it suddenly becomes apparent.
That’s not the definition of a parody, but anyway, here’s a much better example. See, a little bit more effort and imagination than just having to avatars tell us what’s so crazy about the game in three panels.
What? That’s utterly ridiculous. Not being a good artist doesn’t mean you don’t have respect for the medium. That doesn’t even remotely make sense. Second, there are a lot of reasons Andy Weir doesn’t hook up with a talented artist. For starters, it would cost money. A good artists isn’t going to work on someone else’s project for free, and so far as I know, Casey and Andy is not a self-supporting enterprise. Andy Weir doesn’t make his living drawing the comic, he draws it because he likes drawing it. Plus, this way he gets total control over his comic strip, and doesn’t have to filter it through the sensibilities of a third party.
I also disagree with you that Andy Weir is a bad artist. His art isn’t great, but its functional. There’s never any confusion about what you’re looking at, or what’s going on. It’s adequate to transmit the ideas and actions he’s trying to communicate. He’s improved a lot in the two years he’s been doing the comic, and may improve more yet, but even if he’s plateaued, he’s still spent two years working on a thrice-weekly comic, and has been pretty good about hitting his deadlines. There are over 600 strips in his archive. You can argue all you want that he’s not good at it, but he’s definitly dedicated, and I don’t think you’d see that kind of dedication if he didn’t respect the medium.
But that’s exactly what you cited as remarkable about Ramsoonir’s Inuyasha comic: an essentially monochromatic background changes color to indicate the mood of the character in the panel. In addition, Casey and Andy does not, by any means, stick to a solely six-panel format. He changes the format as necessary to the comic he’s drawing. Seriously, if you’re going to criticize the comic, at least read it first, because you’re making basic errors of fact, here.
Yes, they have. For one thing, there’s the drawing of the guy, there. Plus, there’s some pretty subtle comic timing that’s involved in the three panel format. The pause between the set-up and the punch line would be difficult to accurately reproduce outside of him telling the joke in person.
Sorry, I should have said “writing” there, not text. Good writing can save a comic with mediocre art, but good art can’t save a comic with mediocre writing. Casey and Andy has consistently good writing, and decent art. VGCats has great art, and decent-to-good writing. Since I value writing more than art (which is a matter of personal preference) I like Casey and Andy slightly more than VGCats.
That’s an amazingly prejudicial attitude you’ve got there.
It was the only gag in the comic.
Yeah, but so what? This is an amazingly shallow and obvious joke. Ramsoomair has done dozens of other strips that used this theme as a starting point, and then actually went somewhere with it. Here, it’s entirely undeveloped. It’s an amazingly amateur strip in conception.
I didn’t say it was. I said it’s what a good parody does.
Marginally better. Still more of a gross-out gag than anything really clever, but at least it’s a bit more original than the other comic. But it’s still the same basic gag: let’s show a video game action in a realistic way to highlight how horribly it is. Being puked on by a lizard and turning into produce is, at least more interesting to depict that way than hitting a guy in the head with a lead pipe. But considering Ramsoomair has done this exact joke a hundred times before, it comes across to me as lazy and unoriginal. This, on the other hand, is absolutely classic. He starts with a basic joke (“Video game character getting fired from his game”) but actually goes somewhere with it, developes the idea, and builds to a punchline. Plus the great little throw away joke from Sonic in the first panel.
As for three panels with avatars telling us how crazy a game is, if they can be funny while they tell it, who gives a fuck how many panels there are?
Wait, what? Artistic merit aside, surely there isn’t an objective standard for “worth reading”? If so, could you define it a bit more precisely, so I know which comics I should be reading, and which I shouldn’t be?