What webcomics are most deserving of becoming actual comics?

[Steve_MB]

@pizzabrat

Not great artwork, but by definition artwork is a necessary component of comics, so better art=better comic is a valid formula. You can’t say the same about depth and jokes.

I don’t know that this follows (even with the implicit “all else being equal” proviso spelled out). In some cases, it’s an artistic choice to use a minimalistic style:

@Rich Burlew

Q: How come your art sucks so much? Can’t you draw?
A: Grumble. Let’s be clear: I choose to draw stick figures because I think they bring the right air of humor to the strip, and because they create a unique style. People often criticize the OOTS style under the assumption that I am incapable of doing “better.” I would argue that there is no “better” or “worse” involved. I use stick figures because the stick figure style is what is right for the comic. If I were doing a serious fantasy epic, I would draw more realistic pictures.

[pizzabrat]

@Steve MB

I don’t know that this follows (even with the implicit “all else being equal” proviso spelled out). In some cases, it’s an artistic choice to use a minimalistic style:

Ok, and like he says,

I would argue that there is no “better” or “worse” involved. I use stick figures because the stick figure style is what is right for the comic. If I were doing a serious fantasy epic, I would draw more realistic pictures.

Have I said anything that contrary to that? I haven’t defined what constitutes “better” artwork, but I’d bet everything I have that Casey and Andy looks the way it does, not because its author wants it to, but because he has no other choice due to his lack of talent.

[Miller]

@pizzabrat

That’s not what I said at all! When I said “better art=better comic”, I obviously was speaking about the art in a comic. The painting you linked to isn’t a comic, so it’s irelavant to compare it to Watchmen.

I know this is a silly question, but why do you think that painting isn’t a comic? What’s the difference between that and VGCats that makes VGCats such an excellent comic, and The Last Supper such a total failure that it doesn’t even qualify as being a comic?

And I didn’t say art was the only valid criteria for judgement either. My only point was that it’s more valid to judge a comic by its art than it is to judge a joke by its depth.

I’m sorry, but in effect, you’ve said exactly that. You said that a comic with “bad” art isn’t worth reading. No matter what else it has going for it, if the art isn’t good, the whole thing is trash, and the person who wrote it has no respect for the medium. That sounds pretty damn close to “art is the only valid criteria for judgement” to me.

I should have thought to link to this earlier, but Eric Burns has some good insights into why artwork is not the be-all and end-all of creating a comic, and how being a bad artist doesn’t imply any sort of “disrespect” to the medium.

[Peter_Morris]

@pizzabrat

Ok, and like he says, Have I said anything that contrary to that? I haven’t defined what constitutes “better” artwork, but I’d bet everything I have that Casey and Andy looks the way it does, not because its author wants it to, but because he has no other choice due to his lack of talent.

You’d lose that bet. He’s perfectly capable of drawing in different styles if the joke requires it.

see:
http://www.galactanet.com/comic/532.htm
http://www.galactanet.com/comic/538.htm
Why the hatred for him?

[pizzabrat]

@Miller

I know this is a silly question, but why do you think that painting isn’t a comic? What’s the difference between that and VGCats that makes VGCats such an excellent comic, and The Last Supper such a total failure that it doesn’t even qualify as being a comic?

The Last Supper is a painting.

I’m sorry, but in effect, you’ve said exactly that. You said that a comic with “bad” art isn’t worth reading. No matter what else it has going for it, if the art isn’t good, the whole thing is trash, and the person who wrote it has no respect for the medium. That sounds pretty damn close to “art is the only valid criteria for judgement” to me.

No, it’s just establishing the art as the foundation of the comic.

I should have thought to link to this earlier, but Eric Burns has some good insights into why artwork is not the be-all and end-all of creating a comic, and how being a bad artist doesn’t imply any sort of “disrespect” to the medium.

Again, I never said that merely being a bad artist is disrespectful. That doesn’t make any sense at all. I said that not recognizing that the art is important is what’s disrespectful to the medium.

And did you read that link? I could have written that! He brought up the exact same things I’ve been talking about! He even spelled out the reasons why incompetents take up webcartooning - because it seems easy:

@Websnark

I started the strip for a perfectly valid reason: I wanted to. I always wanted to do it, and it hit me that I could. Oh, I had no illusions about being able to draw, but I had seen – sometimes many times over – that a lack of talent or skill was no barrier to putting a comic strip on the web.

And recognized the importance of improving his craft (like Ramsoomair did):

I did experimentation. I tried to do backgrounds. Even on ‘talking heads’ strips I would change the camera angle in each panel. I was trying to evolve as an artist, and I was trying to make it at least fun.

He says he doesn’t say that the art is unimportant. He just said he won’t ridicule other people’s art because he couldn’t do better starting off:

So no, I’m not going to mock peoples’ artwork. Because I know that even if they can’t draw well now, they’ll get better.

See? He takes for granted that getting better is important. Well Casey and Andy has been around for four years, and it doesn’t look like the author is trying to get better.

[pizzabrat]

@Peter Morris

You’d lose that bet. He’s perfectly capable of drawing in different styles if the joke requires it.

see:
http://www.galactanet.com/comic/532.htm
http://www.galactanet.com/comic/538.htm
Why the hatred for him?

All he did was overlay a digital effect to give that 40’s comic a vintage look. And what was so different about the second one besides the photograph in the last panel?

[Peter_Morris]

Erm, the photograph in the last panel. And if you didn’t get the point, that was in tribute to another webcomic, of which he happens to be a fan.

[pizzabrat]

@Peter Morris

Erm, the photograph in the last panel. And if you didn’t get the point, that was in tribute to another webcomic, of which he happens to be a fan.

I got it, but that’s not an example of him being able to draw in a different style. What does it have to do with anything?

[sturmhauke]

The great thing about webcomics, and the Internet in general, is that you can put anything you want online. If people think it’s crap they won’t read it. But if even one other person appreciates the author’s efforts, then the effort was successful. Minimally successful, perhaps, but that’s another argument. To say that so-and-so should stop doing webcomics because he’s “disrespecting the medium” is absurd. Media are merely the means by which ideas are expressed, sets of tools and techniques, nothing more. It’s meaningless to accuse someone of disrespecting the artform called webcomics. You might as well say they are disrespectful of the JPEG file format, HTML, Photoshop, drawing tablets, scanners, pencil and paper, or even the very concept of language.

[Miller]

@pizzabrat

The Last Supper is a painting.

So is this. What makes that a comic, and Last Supper not a comic?

No, it’s just establishing the art as the foundation of the comic.

No, that was specifically disregarding any other element of the comic other than the art.

Again, I never said that merely being a bad artist is disrespectful. That doesn’t make any sense at all. I said that not recognizing that the art is important is what’s disrespectful to the medium.

Sorry, that’s not what you said at all. You said Andy Weir doesn’t respect the medium because he’s a crappy artist. Weir never said anything about art not being important to the medium. I’m the only person here who has said anything close to that, and I said it wasn’t necessarily the most important element to a comic, not that it wasn’t important at all.

And did you read that link? I could have written that! He brought up the exact same things I’ve been talking about! He even spelled out the reasons why incompetents take up webcartooning - because it seems easy:

That link doesn’t say anything about it being easy. He said that he didn’t need skill do make one and put it on the web. The same can be said for writing fiction, painting portraits, photography, music, and just about any other art form short of architecture or experimental dance.

See? He takes for granted that getting better is important. Well Casey and Andy has been around for four years, and it doesn’t look like the author is trying to get better.

Really? You don’t see any change between the first comic and the latest? I’ll grant that Weir still hasn’t risen to your exacting standards for artistic excellence (although you still haven’t clarified exactly what’s wrong with his art), but there’s definite improvement there.

Incidentally, since you seem to think Eric Burns’ comments support your own, you might be interested to know that Casey and Andy is one of his favorite comics.

[Peter_Morris]

@pizzabrat

I got it, but that’s not an example of him being able to draw in a different style. What does it have to do with anything?

Oh, I can’t be bothered arguing. I personally enjoy the strip. It makes me laugh and I like the artwork. If you don’t it’s your loss. No skin off my nose.

[Peter_Morris]

@Miller

Really? You don’t see any change between the first comic and the latest? I’ll grant that Weir still hasn’t risen to your exacting standards for artistic excellence (although you still haven’t clarified exactly what’s wrong with his art), but there’s definite improvement there.

I love the change between strip 1 and strip 100 (another example of how he can vary his style by choice)

[Alistair_McCello]

Of all of the webcomics I have seen that are not available in print I would say that Copper deserves it the most. The only problem being that it is not updated often enough to be published on a regular schedual.

[Peter_Morris]

BTW, can anyone identify the characters in this strip? http://www.galactanet.com/comic/102.htm

panel 3 has Splink from Zortic and Bob the Angry Flower
panel 5 has BA from Knights Of The dinner Table

Who are the rest?

[pizzabrat]

@Miller

Sorry, that’s not what you said at all. You said Andy Weir doesn’t respect the medium because he’s a crappy artist.

…and he doesn’t seem to think that’s much of a problem. For once and for all, that’s what I was saying. I don’t think you have to be as crappy an artist as he after four years of drawing if you don’t want to be. That’s what I was getting at when I said:

if he had respect for the medium, he’d recognize that he isn’t up to the task of creating a comic by himself, and do something about it.

What do you think I meant by “do something about it”? You don’t have to guess, since I said it earlier:

If they have, they’d have enough respect for comics to either give up or get better. There’s no reason Casey and Andy’s writer can’t hook up with a talented artist.

Improve one’s artistic skills (through excersise and study of the artform), hook up with someone who already has artistic skills, or give up. I never implied lacking drawing skills alone means you don’t respect comics.

[jayjay]

@Peter Morris

BTW, can anyone identify the characters in this strip? http://www.galactanet.com/comic/102.htm
Who are the rest?

Panel 1 has Francis from PvP and either Gabe or Tycho from Penny Arcade (I don’t know which is which).

Panel 2 has the Devil from Sinfest.

Panel 4 has Riff from Sluggy Freelance and someone I don’t know.

I don’t know the kids in Panel 5.

[pizzabrat]

@pizzabrat

Improve one’s artistic skills (through excersise and study of the artform), hook up with someone who already has artistic skills, or give up. I never implied lacking drawing skills alone means you don’t respect comics.

forgot to add, “It’s the inaction in remedying that weakness that belies the disrespect, as it shows he thinks what he should recognizes as the foundation of the medium is inconsequential”.

[jayjay]

I find that I do have a bone to pick with Mr. Weir.

When did the 80s become Classic Rock?!

I am NOT that old. pout

[Miller]

@pizzabrat

…and he doesn’t seem to think that’s much of a problem. For once and for all, that’s what I was saying. I don’t think you have to be as crappy an artist as he after four years of drawing if you don’t want to be. That’s what I was getting at when I said:

What on Earth are you talking about? He’s been doing three comics a week for the last four years. That means he’s getting practical experience in cartooning every single day. How do you know that he can get better? How can you state that as an absolute fact? I’m pretty sure that if I studied drawing every day for four years, I’d still be a crappy artist, because I just don’t have the talent for it.

And for the third or fourth time, what specifically is wrong with his art?

Improve one’s artistic skills (through excersise and study of the artform), hook up with someone who already has artistic skills, or give up. I never implied lacking drawing skills alone means you don’t respect comics.

And you never adressed my rebuttal to this: maybe he likes drawing the comic himself. He’s certainly not making any money off it, so I’m not sure what he’d have to offer a more talented artist to do his work for him. The idea that someone who truly respected the medium would give up because he can’t meet some arbitrary standard for competence flies in the face of everything I know about the love of art. The guy’s done over six hundred comics, and hasn’t gotten paid for a single one. Regardless of what you think of the comics themselves, how you can look at that and not realize that the guy has a deep and abiding love of the medium completly baffles me.

[Peter_Morris]

@pizzabrat

Improve one’s artistic skills (through excersise and study of the artform), hook up with someone who already has artistic skills, or give up. I never implied lacking drawing skills alone means you don’t respect comics.

Care to post us a few links to YOUR better artwork? :dubious: