What went wrong with Black Americans?

Great Debates
41

Besides cultural traditions respecting education, there are a number of factors as to why Asians as a whole succeed more than other minority groups. For one, Asian immigrants to the US are usually already from well-educated, middle-class or upper-class backgrounds, mainly because they would be the ones who could afford a trans-oceanic trip. Asian immigration was also restricted for a long time to only the cream of the crop. Thus, Asian immigrants bring their educational success to the US and impart it to their kids. It’s interesting to note that immigrants from Vietnam and Cambodia have high poverty rates, probably because they arrived as poor refugees, unlike most of their Chinese and Japanese counterparts.

Returning back to the OP, it seems that a lot of people here believe that the poverty suffered by black Americans is indeed due to, at least partially, centuries of slavery and horrific discrimination. I tend to agree with this, but I was wondering what the trends are like for blacks who immigrated here of their own free will, perhaps recently enough to make discrimination a relative non-issue. I would expect that they and their children should have higher levels of economic success, but does anyone have a cite or any concrete information on this?

42

The problem as a whole is that of social mobility. If a group of people have historically been at the bottom through unsubstantiated prejudice then, like an unstirred drink, they will largely remain there until longer after any “stirring” begins.

The US is now more economically stratified than it has been for decades - it is extremely difficult to move up from the bottom even if you’re white. Add some residual prejudice, however mild, to that situation and those statistics are not so mysterious.

43

Any changes in societal thinking don’t happen overnight. I don’t even think they can be measured in years. They have to be measured in generations.
The mindset of biggots in America along with the mindset of the black man who blames his situation on society are deeply rooted and have little chance of changing.
You have to look toward the next generation to change the mindset. I’d argue that generation X, or generation Y, has better attitudes and ideas about minorities than say the baby boomers. Yet, the baby boomer are generation X’s parents, and some beliefs are handed down.
It’s how generation X takes these beliefs, takes out the negativity and biggotry, and hands them down to their offspring where you will see a change.

I fear the same thing will happen in Iraq. The animosity they have toward the U.S. for destroying entire cities, causing civilian casualties, and disrupting their entire society can not be repaired overnight. They’re too deeply scared to feel the benefits of a future of democracy. Only their future generations will benefit.

44

How could you forget “Yet Another Rant Against ‘African-American’” and “You’ll Get Reparations Only From My Cold, White Hands”?

To answer the OP, what went wrong was slavery and decades of government-sanctioned oppression that created a well-entrenched underclass. It doesn’t help at all that the underclass was–and continues to be–marked by race. Take each of those things in isolation and things today may have turned out drastically different. If the slaves had been of European descent, the horrors of the institution would have been harder to justify (as long as it was) and assimilation would have been a lot easier after the Civil War. If there had never been slavery of these European undesirables and all that had been formally enacted against them was some kind of Jim Crow, that kind of oppression would have been a lot more difficult to enforce and less steeped in the baggage that characterized post-Reconstruction South. And if slavery and Jim Crow had never been in effect, black people may have had to endure racism and discrimination, but not of the severity and scope of what we had.

Taken all together, slavery, institutional discrimination, and race put a triple whammy on black people. Of course, knowing what happened during slavery gives insight into the problems of today. But I think the greatest effects came as an unintended consequence of the integration movement. Siphon off the middle-class from the rest of the community and what you get is a loss of assets: diverse role models, entrepreneurship, two-parent households, leaders that put a high priority on education and mentoring, etc. What is left behind is the people who never got a chance to “catch up”; these are the people still feeling the aftershocks of oppression and who carry most of the burden that comes with stigmatization. Speech, dress, and attitude: all of that is written in these traits. With that you get is crime, lack of achievement, and other behaviors associated with poverty.

45

I accept that “race” is a social construct, and meaningless scientifically.

Can someone explain to me, in simple language that I can understand, why the NFL and NBA are dominated by black players? I assume that both those organizations are choosing players solely on the basis of athletic merit.

46

There are a whole bunch of problems, but I believe most of them are economic.

Moving from LA to Mississippi, I have had a opportunity to see that poor Blacks and poor Whites have more in common than they have differences. But no one wonders what went wrong with Poor White Americans.

If you are middle class or above, you are taught a lot more things that are taken for granted. Don’t go and get a payday advance. Don’t go and pawn things. Get a checking account, dont go to check cashing places. 1/4 of your income should not be spent on a car note, let alone a lease payment. Common Sense?? Apparently not. Dave Ramsey is making a killing handing out advice like this.

America, the Land of Second Chances, is quickly becoming a Land of One Chance. Did something stupid when you were younger and got a felony? No good jobs for you. Got bad credit? Well we wont hire you for a well paying job that can fix that credit.

Here in MS, there seems to be an inordinate amount of pride among both Blacks and White, in hard work and having a blue-collar background. Blue collar work is nothing to be ashamed of, but the pride is so high that I believe it affects the attitudes of self improvement. I have been told half jokingly, that office work does not equal “an honest day’s work” or “Real work”. The problem is more and more blue-collar jobs are being sent overseas. You can’t be proud of your blue-collar roots, if you can’t find a job.

All of us will stumble in life and get stuck in a rut. A couple of years ago I quite my job, and during the recession I was shocked at how difficult it was to find another job. This was quite a blow to my psyche, but I pulled out of it. I can only imagine how hard it is when you look around, and your entire community seems to be in the same boat.

No one like to be told they’re fucking up. Most of the time, they are well aware of their situation and are trying to better it. No one likes to be told they’re fucking up AND letting down their race. I think this is how some viewed Cosby’s statements.

I believe that racism exists and plays a part, but how much has been the source of countless debates.

47

Basketball and Football are a cheap sports to play as a kid and kids with talent are noticed quickly…follow the money.

Historically the underclass use sports as a method to gain respect and money. Had this been I don’t know, 60 - 70 years ago, you would have noticed that Jews were the majority in Basketball, as the Irish and Italians were in boxing.

As those groups climbed the ladder, the next underclass filled those niches. What happened to the African-American, is that the ladder was kicked out from under them and they never had the opportunity to rise for many centuries. So while other groups were able to shift from sports to other avenues, the African-American stayed focused on sports and pointed generation after generation in that direction.

Nothing to do with genetics, but opportunity.

If you have majority of African-Americans focused into playing 2 sports, then the numbers will simply overwhelm any other group. It’s really just that simple.

48

Currently in New Mexico. For 11 years I lived in Maryland and worked in DC and Northern Virginia. I also lived for 2 years in New York, 3 years in Boston and 2 years in Philly. That help any?

------start rant

Perhaps I’m reading some of the replies wrong but there seems to be an undercurrent of sneering semi-accusations that I’m some kind of racist…and that MY friends are obviously of the wrong sort (several references to paraphrase ‘are THESE your kind of friends?’). They aren’t REAL black men and women because they are professionals (not all of them are college educated btw…in the IT field its more the certs you have than a college degree, least it used to be), even though many of them came from exactly the environment described in the OP…the only differences is they actually know what the hell they are talking about with reference to getting out of the ghetto and making their lives better. So do I for that matter.

To me, THIS is racist…as if you say to the part of the population thats successful that they’ve sold out, or aren’t REALLY <insert poor down trodden minority here>. I.e. REAL minorities are the ones who remain downtrodden (least this is how I read between the lines of whats being said). And they are downtrodden because they simply CAN’T do anything about it…the system is against them, their history is against them, the white man is out to get them, its just so HARD…white people have it easier (this is of course mainly true…still isn’t an excuse IMO).

Even with all the things put in place to help minorities (and there are a lot…I know because I used em myself), the bottom line excuse is…its just too hard. This has always annoyed me to no end when folks talk about hispanics (my own background)…I’m surprised that more blacks don’t get annoyed with this attitude actually. Actually, my un-black friends (appearently) DO get pretty annoyed with it…as do my un-hispanic friends and family. But you know, they (and I) aren’t REAL minorities…

-----end rant

Just to shift things a bit to my own perspective, as perhaps it relates to the OP, even if I’m not black. I’m from Mexico. My family immigrated (emmigrate?) to the US in the early 60’s. I grew up in South Tucson, basically (at the time) a hispanic ghetto in Arizona. My folks came legally to the US (my mother was born in Texas, though her folks were illegals she was still a citizen), but my dad had very little english and few real skills…my grandfather was a dirt farmer in a small village most of you probably never heard of and couldn’t find on a map if you tried…about as poor as you can be in Mexico. In Mexico we lived in a shack with no running water (there was a community well), no indoor plumbing (we DID have our own outhouse), and certainly no electricity…in fact there was no electricity in the entire village before we left. In Tuscon we lived in a one room ‘house’ with no indoor plumbing or electricity, though of course there was electricity in Tuscon which was a comfort. We did get mandatory indoor plumbing though within the first year or so we lived there.

When we came to the US my dad worked odd jobs (mainly as a mechanic/pump operator at a gas station)…anything he could do. My mother cleaned rich white peoples houses (well, as rich as whites are in Tuscon at least)…she was a maid basically. My dad studied english, he read, he took corrospondence courses for high school equivelency, even though most in our community spoke mainly spanish and didn’t bother with such things. As soon as he could he joined the Navy and got into the electronics schools…and was shipped to Vietnam, originally on the small river patrol boats, but eventually he was assigned to a destroyer in the electronics section.

To make a long story short, my dad was able to take what he had learned in the Navy and get a decent technician job with an electronics company fixing TV’s and such…and to go to college in the evenings studying electrical engineering. We moved up from a one room shack in Tuscon to a two room house in a better hispanic section of town (with running water!!), to a better house in California…etc etc. Today my dad owns his own company and I own my own IT company as well (associated with my fathers company).

Am I not a hispanic anymore because my father and my family (my EXTENDED family that is) moved out of the ghetto and made our lives better? My father had very little help from the government to do what he did…basically the breaks he got were that they let us into this country when they didn’t have too, and breaks he made in the Navy. I grew up with very little…it wasn’t until I was in college myself (I DID have government help admittedly, as well as assistance from many hispanic organizations for loans and grants…something available to ALL hispanics if they only take advantage of it) that our standard of living was what is considered ‘middle class’…when we finally had extra money for things like TV’s, vacations, etc.

Many of my other minority friends have similar stories…either they came up from various ghettos themselves or their parents did. Some of my friends came from solidly middle class families or even upper class families. Whats funny (to me) is its the ones who came from middle or upper class families that talk like the folks in this thread…most of the folks who have similar stories to my own also have similar attitudes. Interesting that, no?

-XT

49

Because however much we would like to believe it, race is not entirely a social construct. Rather, people from a given area tend to have traits differeng from people from another area. Hair color, disease immunity, height, athletic performance… We prefer not to think that there are mental/intellectual differences, but it is really too hard to tell given the tremendous effects of social influences. But you’d need pretty strong evidence to make a case for blacks being genetically less intelligent than anyone else.

50

Why assume that?

Why not assume that those selecting athletes don’t want whites out there in a high-risk position?

Maybe those funding sports see it as a way to soothe the masses, like the lottery. It helps propagate the status quo to give those with less, the have nots, opportunities that won’t help most and won’t even permanently elevate a family, but does let them think that this is a way that they can have more and so work harder and take more risks to be better athletes than those who already are part of the haves. It also gives them incentives to favor laws that help the haves because one day they will be one of the haves. It gives visible opportunity to some and keeps a whole lot more busy, but not busy with things that would provide actual competition to most whites economically. With performance enhancement drugs as such a big part of the equation we can’t assume that who we see on the field reflects all that much on who is a naturally better athlete.

I don’t know that it is the case, but I do know that purported meritocracies ofthen are not. There are certainly other explanations than either the one you or I have provided.

51

This attitude is spreading into the general population, though; right now a male student of any race who does well academically will be hazed by his peers in most school settings. This isn’t universal (yet), but it’s spreading at an alarming rate even into the middle classes. (I don’t know about the upper classes; those people don’t mingle with street scum like me.)

52

Because it is error to propound ad-hoc assumptions without any evidence for them.

53

A previous poster has pointed out before, that Jews use to dominate basketball. There were questions back then if there were something physically different about Jews that allowed them to dominate.

Even today the supposed black dominance of basketball is slipping, with the amount of great talent coming out of Europe. How did our Dream Team do in the last Olympics?

If the rise of the Mainland Chinese middle class continues, they get more time for leisure sports and Yao Ming’s success spawns a million playgrounds with basketball courts, be prepared for the possiblity of a Chinese dominated NBA along with the subsequent threads like “Why do the Chinese dominate basketball?” or “Is it true that Chinese have more fast twitch muscles than other people?”

54

“Black culture” doesn’t place high value on black lawyers and doctors? Sorry, but this black woman disagrees. Perhaps you are think most black people are the stereotypical urban hoodlum type seen on MTV or the talk shows, but if that was the case, how can you explain why so many blacks respect personages like Bill Cosby or the popularity of buppie movies like Love Jones and My Best Friend’s Wedding? Black people are a lot more diverse than the hip-hop obsessed teens that seem to be everyone’s idea of the average black person. How many people over the age of 30–black or white–seriously aspire to be like 50 Cent? Let’s be real here.

We are currently experiencing a fad where “bling-bling” rap is popular. Nationwide, without respect to color. Ten years ago, gangsta rap was the thing. Widescale. Before that, black people made music that crossed racial-lines and was very popular. Just as it is now, the music made by black people disproportionately originated from the lower socio-economic stata. Remember the “Doo Wop” era of the 50’s and 60’s? Who was it on the street corners harmonizing? Black kids. Motown would have been nothing without the pool of poor, starry-eyed black kids to pull from. Blacks looked up to Diana Ross and The Temptations, just like they look up to JayZ and Chingy today. But it would be foolish to take that as evidence of “black culture” having a thing against people being lawyers and doctors.

On what are you basing this idea?

55

Nobody to this point has mentioned the consequences of self-destructive choices. It is obvious from the population statistics that blacks are making more poor choices more often, especially black males from 15-30. Whether it is embracing anti-intellectualism, fathering or having a child as a teenager, drug addiction, criminal behavior…the list goes on. And they all have one thing in common…the individual is choosing to do them.
We can debate why they choose to do so forever. Some will say they have no choice given the environment that they find themselves in. But who is responsible for perpetuating the negative aspects of that environment?

No jobs? How do you possibly expect a company to locate in a high-crime area?

No quality education? How can you fund a good school with virtually no property tax value to pay for the building or for quality staff?

Too much violence? Put down the weapons.

Too many fatherless children? Keep your pants up.

As soon as proper personal behavior becomes the rule rather than the exception, things will improve. As long as people continue to poop in their own nest, they should not complain about the smell.

56

I don’t think anything that anybody has said thus far has made the case that individual behavior does not need to change. What I think you are missing is the fact that when thousands of people are making the same bad choices, you have to consider the other causes for it. I think of it like this. About 2 years ago, I got into an accident that was my fault. I was told by the cop that the intersection is was very dangerous, and that he responds to accidents there on a weekly basis. Most of the people in this thread realize that the more effective way to reduce the number of accidents would be to fix the intersection rather than to tell every person who encounters it to drive more safely and to stop getting into accidents, then chastening them when they do.

57

I always love simplistic answers to extremely complicated issues. It must be nice to live in a binary world. Yes or no, right or left. Unfortunately the world doesn’t work that way and we often pay for the sins of our fathers.

Let’s say I pull myself up and I move to a better neighbourhood, so did several “others.” The white folk decide that we are a threat to their property values and leave in drones and everything crumbles, because there’s no enough “decent” folk left to support the neighbourhood…it dies virtually over-night.

No tax base means no good schools. No tax base means no good businesses. The few people who did hold out see the writing on the wall and have to sell their houses, rent their apartments…to whomever they can. Most likey the welfare state or slum landlords. Crime increases partly because of the people, partly because the local government doesn’t want to waste time on people who don’t vote or who don’t count. I don’t leave because the neighbourhood is still better than the one I grew up in…for now.

The Police don’t patrol as often or don’t answer calls as quick as they used to.The streets don’t get cleaned as often, the public transportation doesn’t get upgraded or routes get cut. As other neighbourhoods get revitized, they push even more bad people into the neighbourhood. You wake up one morning and realize that you’re in a slum and can’t get out and are exactly where you were a decade ago. You now understand what you father meant about his neighbourhood, not always being “like this” and why he didn’t leave.

All you want to now is cut your losses and save enough money to purchase a home in better neighbourhood…

A simple question. All i wanted was a better life, what choice did I make that was so bad; that I shouldn’t complain about the smell?

58

The choice on whether to engage in criminal or destructive behavior is binary. Nobody is forcing a gun into anyone elses hands or pulling down their pants.

QUOTE=holmes]
Let’s say I pull myself up and I move to a better neighbourhood, so did several “others.” The white folk decide that we are a threat to their property values and leave in drones and everything crumbles, because there’s no enough “decent” folk left to support the neighbourhood…it dies virtually over-night.

[/QUOTE]

Is there anything about the behavior of many blacks today that would cause them to feel that way? And they have the power to move because they have played by the rules, educated themselves and stayed out of jail. And before you accuse me of racism, I would happily live next to just about anyone as long as they were good neighbors. I don’t want to live next to anyone (of any hue)obsessed with being a thug and sporting “bling-bling”.

QUOTE=holmes]
The Police don’t patrol as often or don’t answer calls as quick as they used to.The streets don’t get cleaned as often, the public transportation doesn’t get upgraded or routes get cut. As other neighbourhoods get revitized, they push even more bad people into the neighbourhood. You wake up one morning and realize that you’re in a slum and can’t get out and are exactly where you were a decade ago. You now understand what you father meant about his neighbourhood, not always being “like this” and why he didn’t leave.

All you want to now is cut your losses and save enough money to purchase a home in better neighbourhood…

[/QUOTE]

This implies that the local government engages in institutional racism. In our hyper politically-correct world, it’s more likely that they would overcompensate to avoid the inevitable charge. Are you actually saying that police repsonse times and public transportation routes are manipulated by a desire to underserve black neighborhoods?

QUOTE=holmes]
A simple question. All i wanted was a better life, what choice did I make that was so bad; that I shouldn’t complain about the smell?
[/QUOTE]

If you embraced education and avoided crime and destructive behavior, you did nothing that was bad at all. The problem is that you would be the exception rather than the rule. When bad actors become the outcasts. success will follow. When people value education and proper behavior in the home, they usually succeed. When they value hand waving, gun toting thugs, they are doomed to fail.

59

Again, humans are not binary creatures. We are subject to outside influences that can cloud our ability to see choice. That of course doesn’t mean that people aren’t responsibile for the choices they make; however it doesn’t take much empathy to see that some people have clearer vision. I don’t know how to fix that.

[quote]
Is there anything about the behavior of many blacks today that would cause them to feel that way? And they have the power to move because they have played by the rules, educated themselves and stayed out of jail. And before you accuse me of racism, I would happily live next to just about anyone as long as they were good neighbors. I don’t want to live next to anyone (of any hue)obsessed with being a thug and sporting “bling-bling”.{/quote]

It’s never a good thing to claim not to be a racist, especially when talking about race. Anyway, this has nothing to with today. Today’s society is reflecting events that happened decades ago. I grew up in the sixties and white flight was a real event. The neighbourhoods TODAY are the result of those events, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Like I said, we all pay for the sins of our fathers.

The reason there’s no tax base in certain neighbourhoods today is because of events that happened 40 years ago. This stuff didn’t happen overnight or when RAP music got really loud or blacks got the right to vote. You really need to look at this as a straight line from a historical standpoint, from the beginning; not just at the end. Without context, you can’t understand what you’re talking about and only speak in generalities.

You really need to stop seeing everything in terms of race. Police underpatrol poor neighbourhoods, in comparison to wealthier ones…generally. I’ve been poor and I’ve been better; I assure you, being better is better.

Exception rather than the rule? What does that mean? 90% of blacks are engaged in destructive behaviour? 45% percent? Who’s this “they” and how did you come to know what “they” value? What do you base this knowledge on?

60

[QUOTE=holmes]

fixed quote:

It’s never a good thing to claim not to be a racist, especially when talking about race. Anyway, this has nothing to with today. Today’s society is reflecting events that happened decades ago. I grew up in the sixties and white flight was a real event. The neighbourhoods TODAY are the result of those events, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Like I said, we all pay for the sins of our fathers.

The reason there’s no tax base in certain neighbourhoods today is because of events that happened 40 years ago. This stuff didn’t happen overnight or when RAP music got really loud or blacks got the right to vote. You really need to look at this as a straight line from a historical standpoint, from the beginning; not just at the end. Without context, you can’t understand what you’re talking about and only speak in generalities.