What were advantages of other ancient numbering systems?

The base-10 Arabic numbering system we use today seems so obvious and useful. It’s hard to imagine any other numbering system, but there were many others before it and in use in other parts of the world. Were there advantages to those other numbering systems and what were they?

For example, the Egyptian system seems to be good for counting. They had the notion of base-10 with a different symbol for the ones, tens, hundreds etc. Each symbol would be repeated the necessary amount of times. A number like 235 might be represented as:

    HHTTTOOOOO

Where ‘H’ represents hundreds, ‘T’ represents tens, and ‘O’ represents ones. A system like this seems to be better than Arabic if counting things in realtime is important. You can easily add symbols as more and more things are counted.

On the other hand, I can’t think of an advantage to Roman numerals. It wasn’t base-10, which meant math was difficult. The rules about whether the digits were before or after meant realtime number recording would be difficult. Writing 235 is CCXXXV but 244 is CCXLIV. So it seems hard to use for math and hard to use for counting.

What about other ancient counting systems? Which ones had features that would be seen as a benefit over Arabic numbers?

Hebrew numerals always seemed to me even more awkward than Roman numerals. They used 9 letters for 1-9, 10 more for 10-100, then 200, 300, 400, ran out of letters and tried weird combinations. (Note, I have no experience actually doing math with Hebrew numerals.)

Bases 12 and 60 are far more useful than base 10. You can divide 12 by integers (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12) far more than 10 (1, 2, 5, 10). And you can count base 12 with your thumb on the knuckles of one hand.

We still use base 60.

Base 16 FTW. I use it daily.

But the question is really not about bases. It’s about positional vs. non-positional number systems. Non-positional number systems were generally developed as ad-hoc abbreviations for writing numbers out in words. So if you had to write “three hundred and forty-two,” you might invent a writing system that had a symbol for three, a symbol for hundreds, and maybe a symbol for forty (or maybe for four tens) and a symbol for two.

These are fine for writing numbers and maybe doing some basic counting, but they are awkward for arithmetic. There are algorithms out there for doing arithmetic with Roman numerals, but they are painful. They also typically did not include a zero or placeholder symbol, which is a prerequisite for a positional system.

Positional number systems were quick to take over once they were invented because they made the arithmetic algorithms so much easier.

Just to be clear, I’m not talking about other base number systems like base-16 or base-12. I’m interested in numbering systems used by ancient societies like Roman, Greek, etc. Those numbering systems were created by those societies for their own purpose. Some of them may have had features which could be considered an advantage over Arabic numbers.

I imagine they’re a lot easier to chisel into stone than Arabic numerals are.

Babylonian base-60 numbers were really nice because round numbers divided evenly into halves, thirds, tenths, and twelfths. Remnants of this system are still around in clocks (guess who invented the concept of the minute?) and angle measurements (out of 360).

You didn’t need new symbols for them. It’s not really much of an advantage, but it does make teaching them a bit easier.

This question is a bit misleading. Any new features that people like have been added as the years go by. It’s not like the numeral system has been static for all this time.

There are essentially (more, if you get into details) three main aspects to our current system of numerals: the symbols themselves, a symbol for zero as a placeholder, and positional numbering.

The thing is they weren’t all invented at the same time, they weren’t all invented in the same place, and they weren’t combined for a long time.

Our system of numerals are also often (and perhaps properly) called the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. That’s a key distinction. It lets us know our current system of numerals isn’t something that came about in one go. It’s a mish-mash of symbols and numeral traditions from disparate locations, though probably promulgated primarily by Arab mathematicians and traders.

The numerals themselves (or the idea of such) were developed first and probably inspired by Hindu mathematicians, and then positional notation a few centuries later, and finally the concept of zero as a placeholder centuries after that.

The system of numerals was refined over the course of centuries with revisions and additions. If something was observed to be a benefit, it was added. One example is the use of commas (or periods) to separate groups of three digits. For example, in the US it’s common to see the number 2 thousand, five hundred and sixty-three as 2,563. In other countries, it may be written as 2.563 or perhaps with a small space to denote the break, i.e. 2 563.

Note this is somewhat language dependent. In English, we naturally group numbers in powers of 10^3. So, we have thousands, millions, billions, etc. In China and other East Asian countries, the natural groupings are in powers of 10^4, so it is not uncommon to see numbers grouped in sets of 4, rather than 3.

In any case, it was found to improve readability to have something to separate larger numbers into smaller blocks of numbers, so it was added to the way we write numerals. Since computing and electronic writing area much bigger parts of our daily lives now, the use of such separators is becoming less common.

Also, with more focus on fractional amounts a few centuries back, our numeral system has also been extended to have a decimal marker. One and a half may be written in American English as 1.5, for example.

I am not sure they did have any particular advantages. Place notation, such as we use, is much better. The trouble was that, although it may seem obvious to us now, place notation was not easy to invent, and before you have it, you do not really know you need it. (This is often the case with what seem, in retrospect, the most obvious and useful discoveries and inventions.) Particularly difficult, here, probably, is the concept of a number zero, which is really a very abstract and unnatural notion compared to the numbers from 1 on up, which you can actually use to count things.

So, it is not that the ancient systems had peculiar advantages of their own, it was that they had not thought of a better system, and had no idea that a better system was possible, or would be useful.

Roman typewriters required only 20 keys, which took care of all the letters in their alphabet, as well as all their numbers. They used only capitals, so even the shift key was superfluous. A shift key would allow Romans to type on a 12-key keyboard, allowing for a space bar and a period.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. Different base digits are compatible with positional number systems. Do not confuse the format or display (which is basically what positional numbering is) with the base number set. Base ten mostly took over because it was conveniently packaged with the Indian mathematical inventory of zero. It could have been anything.

An ancient numbering system doesn’t have to be better in every way. It just has to have an advantage in some aspect.

For example, you know how sometimes we count in groups of five with lines like this: I, II, III, IIII, [del]IIII[/del]. A system like that wouldn’t be good for math, but it is great for keeping a running count. Or like the Egyptian system of repeating a single symbol multiple times. That would also make it a good system for keeping a running count.

I don’t know that I would consider reusing symbols in the Roman system as an advantage. It seems better to have different symbols for numbers than letters. You still have to learn the difference between C being a letter and C being a number. It seems better to have separate symbols since they are separate concepts. Unless, as was said, it was so they didn’t have to make new typewriters.

Also, as robert_columbia noted, positional notation has been invented more than once; the first time we know of was about 4000 years ago in the Old-Babylonian period, which used 60 as the base of the positional numerals.

So positional notation was around in many cultures, in the form of time and angle measurement units borrowed from the Babylonians, for a LONG while before it became standard for numeration and arithmetic in general.

One reason non-positional systems hung on as long as they did was the advantage they offered of unambiguous and hard-to-alter numeric records. When squeezing an extra little-bitty “1” symbol onto a previously-written number means multiplying it by 10 instead of adding 1 to it, incentives for forgery increase, as do the risks associated with random scribal errors.

The modern place-value system allows one to have a systematic way to write arbitrarily large numbers, without limit. The older systems discussed above had (fairly small) limits on how large an integer you could write, or how large you could write in any practical way. I believe M (for 1000) was the largest one-letter Roman numeral. Try to write 1,000,000 that way: You’d need to write M out repeatedly, M times.

As noted above, the modern system allows decimal fractions. We also have a good system of writing any rational number as the ratio of two integers. The Greeks in the days of Pythagoras understood rational numbers that way, but I don’t know that they had a good system for writing them or working with them. (Can anybody fill me in on that?)

I don’t think any other ancient system had a general way to write fractions, other than a few specific symbols for some commonly-used ones.

The modern system greatly facilitates arithmetic. Forget the complicated algorithms for Roman numerals or Hebrew calculations. Our system even makes long division :eek: reasonably practical! Try that in Roman or Hebrew or Egyptian or Babylonian!

No I absolutely was not comparing apples to oranges, and it is you, not me, who is confused. I made no allusion to bases at all (which the OP has explicitly said is not what he is concerned with). My post was entirely about the advantages of place notation versus other systems. Perhaps you should try to reading more carefully and to avoid projecting your own preconceptions onto other people.

I don’t think they used periods either, and, early on, not even spaces. Roman touch typing was a breeze! (Reading it must have been a real pain, though.) :wink:

Isn’t that M with a bar over it, or is that some “modern” notation?

It all depends on the use to which you put your numbers.

If your primary use is counting things, and adding quantities, then a system like the Romans used makes a lot more sense. It’s very easy to teach, it’s much more robust against small errors in writing, placement, or style, and both addition and subtraction are generally much easier with it. (In fact, if you look at the way math is taught in K and 1st grade, it is essentially through Roman numbers, only they use markers like pennies and dimes instead of I and X. Experience tells us that children learn the concepts of abstract number (number dissociated from an actual number of objects), addition and subtraction faster if they learn it using a system where position carries no information.

The only time positional (i.e. Arabic) numbers come into their own is when you need to do lots of multiplication and division. Both are much easier to do with a positional system. The tradeoff is that addition and subtraction become more complicated – you need all that weirdness with carrying and borrowing that has 2nd graders scratching their heads, and very reasonably so. So you only go to a positional system when the value of making multiplication and dvision easier is worth the cost in addition and subtraction. Say, when you’ve got a government doing big accounting, or astrologers doing fancy calculations, and when the system is driven less by the needs of small business or the household, which rarely need to multiply and divide, and for whom the ability to do addition and subtraction in their heads would be valuable indeed.

The question of base is similar. The base you choose has something to do with the ease of counting, which is what (and only what) points to base 10, what with the ten fingers business. A somewhat more sophisticated understanding will emphasize the bases that lend themselves to fractions, because working with fractions in your head is much easier than working with decimals. (All woodworkers know this: it’s much easier to divide a 5 foot board in 18 pieces with 1/4 inch allowance for the cut between each IN YOUR HEAD if you are using a base, e.g. 12 in this case, that allows for lots of even fractions: 5 x 12in = 60 in of board, 16 gaps x 1/4 in each = 4 in waste, leaving 56 inches for 18 pieces, or 56/18 = 3 and 2/18 = 3 and 1/9 in each. Try doing that in your head with decimals, e.g. starting with a 5 m board and wanting 18 pieces with 0.15 cm allowance for the cut.)

Often you have a balance between number of available fractions and the size of the number, i.e. whether you can work up enough fingers, toes, knuckles and symbols to readily count. The general winners are 12 (gives an integer for 1/2,1/3,1/4, and 1/6) and 16 (1/2,1/4,1/8), which accounts for our inches in a foot and ounces in a pound. Base 60 is certainly remarkable (1/2,1/3,1/4,1/5,1/6,1/10,1/12,1/15,1/20,1/30) but it’s not easy to count on fingers and toes, and devising 60 separate symbols would be nuts. Still, it’s useful enough to have gone into minutes per hour, which in turn led to degrees per standard watch arclength (4 hours of the Sun’s passage across the sky).

Still another often overlooked advantage of bases related to 2, e.g. base 16, is the ease of making good instruments in an era when they all had to be made by hand. For example, people frequently mock Daniel Fahrenheit’s temperature scale, as compared to Anders Celsius, but this is simply historical ignorance. Fahrenheit’s scale was ingenious because you could make a reliable thermometer with just your bare hands, a piece of string, some freezing water, a tube of glass, a liquid (alcohol works fine) and a scribe.

You thrust the tube into a bucket of ice and water, and scribe a mark on the tube. That’s 32. Now you put the tube under your arm until it heats to body temperature and make another mark. That’s 96. Now you need to make 64 equally spaced marks between 32 and 96, which is easy to do with your string and scribe, since you can just divide the distance in half again and again.

And as a special bonus, you can extend your marks downward from 32 to 0, and, amazingly enough, that will turn out to be essentially the lowest temperature seawater can reach and still be liquid, the temperature of an equilibrium mix of salt, ice and water. (Fahrenheit was a meteorologist on the coast of the Baltic.)

Compare that to Anders Celsius" scale: you put your tube into a bucket of ice and water and mark 0. Now you put it into some boiling water…er wait a minute, you need to pick the right place and day, since (as Fahrenheit knew well) the boiling point of water varies nontrivially with air pressure, and hence with altitude and weather. (The freezing point varies, too, but much less.) Hmm, OK, so you’ve gone to some canonical altitude and waited for what you hope is the same kind of weather as your scientific colleagues across the sea, and you mark 100 on your thermometer. Now you just need to divide that distance into 100 perfectly equal divisions. Which…hmmm…is going to be kind of difficulty, without some first-class carefully machined and standardized ruler, a very expensive widget.

Celsius’ scale only comes into its own when you start thinking about steam engines, and you want to readily remember that 100 is the magic number, not 212. So once again, if you are simply recording data and observing, the older system works better. Once you start doing sophisticated stuff, and anyway have ready access to fine tools and measuring devices, not to mention calculators, then the more modern system takes over.

Bzzzt: the ancient Babylonian base-60 place-value numbers mentioned earlier included a general system of base-60 place-value fractions, vestiges of which still survive in our base-60 time and angle measurement notation.

That is, just as we use “1:30” to mean “one and a half hours after the start (of the day)”, ancient Babylonian scribes would write a symbol for 1 and then a symbol for 30 to mean “one and a half” in any context.

Their place-value fractional system also continued indefinitely, just as our decimal version does: i.e., they would write a number after the units place to indicate the number of 60ths, then a number after that to indicate how many 3600ths, and if necessary another number for the 216000ths, and so on. (In practice only one or two fractional places would generally be used, except in some astronomical calculations where the precision went up to four or five sexagesimal (base-60) places.)

As for fractions in Greek alphabetic numerals, they had different conventions for unit fractions (those with 1 in the numerator) and general fractions; you can see a description here.

There were some advantages to the Roman number system. In our number system, a 5 can represent different amounts depending on where it’s placed. The 5’s in 165 and 459 and 533 all represent different amounts. But in the Roman number system a V is always the same amount and is not the same as a L or a D. So in that sense, there’s less room for possible confusion in the Roman system.