Almost all of the United States of America was literally ethnically cleansed. No one in the USA is in any position to throw stones on that score.
I never did any ethnic cleansing. My ancestors might have, but I didn’t.
Are you saying I bear guilt for my ancestor’s actions, and that guilt should limit the range of political opinions I express?
I’m saying that Americans are the continual ongoing beneficiaries of ethnic cleansing; like a German family that moved into a house that was “abandoned” by its former Jewish owners. Unless you think we should be paying land taxes to the appropriate surviving tribal government, it’s unavoidable. It’s ugly, it’s cruel, it’s morally indefensible, but ethnic cleansing of territory has been going on since our big toes were opposable.
ETA: And here’s the thing: the Palestinians could have retained Gaza indefinitely, and Israel would have been okay with that; but Hamas just had to try to prove how big their dicks were and now innocents are paying for it.
So because there was ethnic cleansing in the past, that means it’s wrong to criticize anyone for ethnic cleansing now? If that’s not what you’re saying, then what the fuck are you saying?
I’m saying it’s not in the past; it’s living on today embodied in the life we take for granted every day.
How is that relevant to anything I said? Nothing I said is contrary to that at all.
So are you saying ethnically cleansing Gaza is indeed wrong, and it is indeed correct to criticize the Israeli government for it?
I’m saying that one can hardly criticize the Israelis for failing to find another way, when we ourselves didn’t. It’s like those comedies where someone who has been preaching pacifism finally breaks down and punches someone out because sometimes ya gotta’.
That’s complete and utter bullshit. Israel could, you know, just not ethnically cleanse. That wouldn’t mean the end of Israel.
There were many, many choices that got us here. Hamas certainly deserves as much blame as anyone else. So does Netanyahu and his allies in the Israeli government. Functionally speaking, Hamas and Netanyahu (and many others on the extreme right) are allies in the Endless Bloodshed party. Both are doing their best to make sure no Jew or Palestinian in the region ever has to endure anything as undesirable as long-term peace and security.
And you know what? Hamas could, you know, just “not” ethnically cleanse the Jews.
Please remember how this war started. On October 6, 2023 there were ZERO Israelis in Gaza. at 6 am, armed barbarians from Hamas crossed the border, invaded thousands of Israeli private home, pulled people out of bed in their pyjamas and murdered them in cold blood, while proudly recording it on video.
And they proudly announce that they would do it again.
That’s ethnic cleansing.
So… your argument is that because Hamas is ethnic cleansing, that makes it okay for the Israeli government to do it to Gaza?
no, it is that because Hamas;s goal is ethnic cleansing, we Israelis have the right to defend ourselves.
So you oppose ethnic cleansing? Even if the Israeli government does it in Gaza?
Rephrasing the question: is everything Israel does, plans to do, and can do, in Gaza, okay with you because Hamas ethnically cleanses Jews? If not, then is this particular instance, in which its being reported that the Israeli government is planning to cleanse northern Gaza of Gazans, okay with you, or is it okay to criticize it?
It really isn’t. And that’s why words and their connotations are important. Being murderous, terrorist, evil bastards doesn’t equal ethnic cleansing. They have no way, ever, of doing that to Israel. Invade (as they did), kill, kidnap, mutilate, rape - yes. But to ethnically cleanse Israel, they have to be in power in Israel.
It’s a fraught issue, but using hyperbole and whataboutism isn’t really addressing the problem.
Israel could have killed millions of civilians over the past year with aerial bombing, just like America did in WW II., destroying every building in Tokyo, Dresden, most of Berlin, etc.
When the ethnic cleansing barbarians are hiding among the civilian population, there will be some collateral damage. (Which, let’s all admit, is a polite way of saying dead innocent children). But the statistics show that most of the dead in Gaza are men of fighting age, (at least 20 thousand of the 40 thousand deaths). That’s sad, but it’s a direct result of the terrorists hiding among their own children.
Note that the terrorists don’t wear uniforms. Except , of course , when they want to. When they released innocent Israeli civilian hostages, they made a huge celebration out of it, and proudly wore the uniforms that they don’t wear when they are carrying out ethnic cleansing. and murdering innoncents.
This didn’t remotely answer my question. Once again,
This comes dangerously close to the revolutionary’s doctrine that the basis of all right and wrong is that it’s wrong that my enemies should have power and I don’t. I believe that George Orwell had some things to say about this.
Not literally everything, no– which is why Israel isn’t doing literally anything. But terrorists deliberately employ a strategy of trying to make the authorities opposing them either futilely play whack-a-mole or else resort to harsh measures that allow the terrorists to weep crocodile tears over how cruel and evil their opponents are. The middle ground is razor-thin and sometimes nonexistent.
Did Orwell also say that ethnic cleansing is bad, except when it’s not, and then it’s the fault of those being cleansed?
But ethnic cleansing is okay with you, in this case?
I’m unsure whether he addressed it. What I’m saying is that you’re happily ignoring the wailing of the indigenous American ghosts as you drive your automobile over their grave sites.