Hijacking posts for voting strategy thread, Gaza stuff

[Banquet_Bear]

@RitterSport

Biden is a good option for pro-Palestine voters.

…can we not do this?

This week in Gaza Palestinians are discovering and exhuming mass graves. Over 700 bodies have been found so far including women, children, patients, hospital staff, people who have had their hands tied, shot in the head.

Over on the West Bank a couple of days ago in a raid on a refugee camp 14 Palestinians were killed, 50 injured, and 4000 homes had their power and water cut off.

Massive atrocities and war crimes have happened under Biden’s watch and tacit approval. Biden isn’t “pressuring Bibi.” He’s letting him do whatever he likes. And “abstaining from UN votes” does nothing when the United States has cut off funding to UNRWA for no good reason at all.

Biden is a lot of things. But one thing that he isn’t is a “good option for pro-Palestinian voters.” It’s unconscionable to expect Palestinian Americans who have had their families wiped out, to expect students who have been doxxed, kicked out of their dorms, beaten and arrested this week, for Palestinian journalists who have been banned from reporting on the conflict, for people who have been accused of anti-semitism and blood libel for simply expressing the most milquetoast defence of the Palestinian people, to think that Biden is a “good option for pro-Palestine voters.” A vote for Biden is a vote for the death and destruction to continue. Lets not pretend otherwise.

For decades marginalised folk have held their nose and voted for the Democrat on the ticket. And here we are in 2024. Abortion banned in multiple states. The Supreme Court in the hands of the right for at least a generation. Trans people having to flee states in order to continue to recieve healthcare. And this week, student protest in support of the Palestinian people have been portrayed as “anti-Semitic” both by the media and from the highest levels of the Biden administration. Many universities have let the police in to “smash them up.”

“Trump will be worse” is not going to work this time. People are going to silently sit out the next election because they cannot, in good concious, vote for the person that they consider to be in part, responsible for a genocide.

And if Biden does lose the next election, you better NOT blame those who decided to stay at home. Not this time. “Guilt-tripping people” is not an effective political strategy. “Trump will be worse” is not an effective political strategy. Not when the benchmark here is how Biden has handled the conflict in Gaza.

Giving people something to vote for is an effective election strategy.

@RitterSport

but when it comes to the general election, pro-Palestine voters should be first in line, canvassing, doing whatever they can to get out the Biden vote.

@CNN

Thousands of miles away from the brutality of war in Gaza, Tariq Hamouda and his wife Manal are in disbelief over the loss of three generations of their family.

The Palestinian Americans, who live in Maple Grove, Minnesota, say it’s been over a week since they learned 42 relatives were killed in the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas, and they’re still unable to fully comprehend the news.

…

“She loves every member of her family. She spent the summer with them,” explained Hamouda, who says he and his wife are originally from the same neighborhood in Gaza but have lived in Minnesota since 2004.

…

“It’s not one, two, three, or four – it is 42 members, it’s really hard to cope with.”

Abu Shaban says the deceased range in age from three months to 77. They were all staying in a single compound. His uncle, Essam Abu Shaban, wife Layla Saqallah and their son Ahmed were among those killed. To avoid Israeli airstrikes, they had evacuated the nearby Tel El Hawa neighborhood and sought refuge in the Saqallah’s home, Abu Shaban says.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/31/world/palestinian-american-family-relatives-killed-gaza/index.html

Expecting people who have experienced this level of loss, or people who are standing in solidarity with them, should “be first in line, canvassing, doing whatever they can to get out the Biden vote”, is an unbelievably bad take.

There are going to be a lot of people, with very good reason, that will be sitting the next election out. You all should be aware of that now. Just accept that. If you want Biden to win, then you need to change your strategy fast. Guilt-tripping and gas-lighting isn’t going to work. Banning TikTok isn’t going to work. I honestly don’t know what will work. Statistically, It’s going to come down to a handful of voters in a handful of states anyway.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…can we not do this?

This week in Gaza Palestinians are discovering and exhuming mass graves. Over 700 bodies have been found so far including women, children, patients, hospital staff, people who have had their hands tied, shot in the head.

…can we not do this?

This is debunked misinformation.

I wasn’t going to participate in this thread, but repeating debunked misinformation is just too far.

I reported the misinformation with a cite and will not be returning to this thread so as not to hijack it, so please do not reply to this post with further hijacks of the topic.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

This is debunked misinformation.

…no it is not.

Michael Kobs

Geolocation isn’t credible. There were IDF massacres at the hospitals. Multiple witnesses. Physical evidence. And the cuffed bodies speak for themselves.

Israel War on Gaza | Mass graves in Gaza | Today's latest from Al Jazeera

Evidence of torture as nearly 400 bodies found in Gaza mass graves

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

Geolocation isn’t credible

The beautiful thing about GeoConfirmed is that they give you all the evidence you need to come to your own conclusion.

But I’m not getting into a hijack argument with you here. Reporting all involved posts again.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

The beautiful thing about GeoConfirmed is that they give you all the evidence you need to come to your own conclusion.

…the not-beautiful thing about the video and the photos and the testimony is that we can’t ignore that.

And to bring it back on topic: its these photos and these videos and this testimony that pro-Palestine voters have been seeing and listening to for the last six months. And those voters are never, ever going to be voting for Biden. He’s lost their votes. If you want Biden to win the next election, you’ve got to figure out another way.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…the not-beautiful thing about the video and the photos and the testimony is that we can’t ignore that.

…Just like the photos and videos from years ago that show these alleged IDF graves being dug. Cannot ignore that either.

[Banquet_Bear]

…my strategic answer to the OP is that Biden has lost the pro-Palestine vote. You aren’t going to get them. The scale of the atrocities is too big. And Biden and his administration is not going to change course.

Focus on other issues. Pretend Gaza isn’t happening. Gaslight. That’s the strategy the administration have adopted so far. Just lean into it. Because I’ll say it again, he isn’t getting the pro-Palestine vote.

[Banquet_Bear]

…well, since I’m the OP, I’ll set the tone for this thread, I’ll suppose.

Let’s make it about how Biden’s policy on Gaza has been an absolute disaster, and if Trump wins the next election, it’s all going to be Biden’s fault.

[Smapti]

@Banquet_Bear

And to bring it back on topic: its these photos and these videos and this testimony that pro-Palestine voters have been seeing and listening to for the last six months. And those voters are never, ever going to be voting for Biden. He’s lost their votes. If you want Biden to win the next election, you’ve got to figure out another way.

So in other words, the Palestinians are doomed and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

Ever the optimist, ain’t ya?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

So in other words, the Palestinians are doomed and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

…I’ve said that the endgame for Palestinians will be either one of three things: they manage to escape from Gaza and live the rest of their lives in exile, they will live under brutal occupation in what remains of Palestinian terrritory, or they will be killed, either by the bombing, the shooting, or the siege.

This is how it ends under Biden. This is how it ends under Trump. And there is nothing that any of us can do about it.

There is absolutely no reason to be optimistic about this.

[PhillyGuy]

@Banquet_Bear

Over 700 bodies have been found so far including women, children, patients, hospital staff, people who have had their hands tied, shot in the head.

If this is literally how the Israelis are behaving in Gaza, then I would agree it couldn’t get worse under Trump, and friends of Gaza might as well vote for Cornel West.

While the quoted claim seems obvious incitement, I can see waiting a few weeks for more mainstream investigation, after which I expect some U.S. spokesperson to say it was not true. And, if you are correct that this extreme atrocity story is already proven, and I am correct about what the U.S. will eventually say about it, that means the Biden administration is covering up atrocities, just as much as Trump might. So again – Cornel West.

Rushing to judgment that Hamas did the children and nurses hands tied/shot in the head thing would also be incitement. The more extreme the atrocity story, the more reason to go slow in judgment.

@Banquet_Bear

And those voters are never, ever going to be voting for Biden. He’s lost their votes. If you want Biden to win the next election, you’ve got to figure out another way.

If true, the political answer would be to go more one-sidedly pro-Israel in hopes of getting single-issue pro-Israel voters. He could highlight some of Trump’s arguably pro-Palestinian statements, such as endorsement of the “Genocide Joe” canard.

Am I really advising Biden to pander to a voting block by adopting a foreign policy he doesn’t believe in? Of course not. Pandering, whether to you or me, besides being morally wrong, will lose at least as many votes as it gains.

[Banquet_Bear]

@PhillyGuy

If true, the political answer would be to go more one-sidedly pro-Israel in hopes of getting single-issue pro-Israel voters.

…I’d agree with this. And that appears to be the strategy they have chosen. They aren’t even attempting to pander to the pro-Palestinian vote. As I said: lean into it.

[Banquet_Bear]

@PhillyGuy

While the quoted claim seems obvious incitement, I can see waiting a few weeks for more mainstream investigation, after which I expect some U.S. spokesperson to say it was not true.

…the thing is, we can completely ignore the bodies claim if you like. The only reason I mentioned it at all was because it was the most recent documented atrocity. The siege is still ongoing. At least 100 Gazans are being killed every single day. People trying to return home in the north risk getting killed. Aid trucks are routinely targeted. The healthcare system has been destroyed. They literally burned down Al Shifa hospital.

There are no shortages of atrocities that we could use here. And the Biden administration has been almost silent on all of them.

[Babale]

@PhillyGuy

While the quoted claim seems obvious incitement, I can see waiting a few weeks for more mainstream investigation, after which I expect some U.S. spokesperson to say it was not true. And, if you are correct that this extreme atrocity story is already proven, and I am correct about what the U.S. will eventually say about it, that means the Biden administration is covering up atrocities, just as much as Trump might.

That’s a pretty big “if” considering how BB’s source is Al Jazeera, who have lied countless times throughout this conflict.

A major example was when they lied about Israel bombing a hospital and killing 500 people when in fact a Palestinian rocket failed, hit a parking lot, and killed maybe 50 people. A claim that AFAIK neither Al Jazeera (nor Banquet Bear, again AFAIK though I could have missed it) have retracted despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It makes sense that BB would claim GeoConfirmed is “unreliable” since they were one of the early sources to call BS (with proof) on the hospital strike story.

[DrDeth]

@Banquet_Bear

Massive atrocities and war crimes have happened under Biden’s watch and tacit approval. Biden isn’t “pressuring Bibi.” He’s letting him do whatever he likes.

Biden has no 'watch" authority in another sovereign nation. Nor approval. Biden can no more control Netanyahu than he can control Putin.

@Banquet_Bear

to think that Biden is a “good option for pro-Palestine voters.” A vote for Biden is a vote for the death and destruction to continue.

Biden can not stop the death in Gaza, short of landing the US Marines-which would cause more death and destruction. Only Netanyahu and the Hamas leadership can.

@Banquet_Bear

“Trump will be worse” is not going to work this time. People are going to silently sit out the next election because they cannot, in good concious, vote for the person that they consider to be in part, responsible for a genocide.

trump will be worse- lots worse, and yes if you sit out the election you are supporting trump and more death and destruction- not to mention the end of American Democracy.

@Banquet_Bear

You all should be aware of that now. Just accept that. If you want Biden to win, then you need to change your strategy fast.

How? What can Joe Biden do- legally- to stop the deaths in Gaza? Cut aid to Israel? The President can’t do that. Land the Marines at Maswaa Rafab wharf? The president cant do that.

@Banquet_Bear

my strategic answer to the OP is that Biden has lost the pro-Palestine vote. You aren’t going to get them. The scale of the atrocities is too big. And Biden and his administration is not going to change course.

Blaming Biden for Gaza is like blaming Biden for famine in Ethiopia.

@Banquet_Bear

Let’s make it about how Biden’s policy on Gaza has been an absolute disaster,

What Policy? Putting as much legal pressure he can on Netanyahu?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

A major example was when they lied about Israel bombing a hospital and killing 500 people when in fact a Palestinian rocket failed, hit a parking lot, and killed maybe 50 people. A claim that AFAIK neither Al Jazeera (nor Banquet Bear, again AFAIK though I could have missed it) have retracted despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

@Silent Lunch

On October 17, shortly after an explosion at a hospital in Gaza, headlines around the world declared that the Gaza Health Ministry said the blast had killed at least 500 people. This was reported by the New York Times , the Washington Post , the Wall Street Journal , the New York Post , ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN, NPR, PBS, the Associated Press, the Guardian , and Al Jazeera.
…
Except there was a problem. In all of the news reports I saw—from the Times on down—none of them linked to the original source of the more than 500 dead claim. It was simply attributed, variously, to either the Gaza Health Ministry, a “Ministry spokesperson,” “Palestinian authorities,” or Hamas.

I reached out to two different Times reporters, twice each, who had published articles with the claim, asking for the original source of the statement—was it from a video? a press release? an interview? I did not get a reply from either of them. I then emailed four different contacts at the Associated Press, which had made the same claim. And so on. In all, I contacted a dozen reporters or communications departments at news outlets, including the Times, the AP, the Wall Street Journal , ABC News, the Guardian , and Al Jazeera.

Did the Entire Media Industry Misquote a Hamas Spokesperson?

The “500” number was used by a number of different sources, not just Al Jazeera, who have not “lied” countless times throughout this conflict. Further from the blog:

Finally, we found what appeared to be the source. At 1:50pm ET on October 17, Al Jazeera’s Arabic Twitter account posted a video clip (presumably of an interview that aired on its TV network) of an interview with Ashraf Al-Qidra, the Ministry of Health spokesperson.

…

This is the moment where your eyebrows should arch. Notice that the text refers to more than 500 victims . A victim can mean a death, but it, of course, can also mean someone injured in any capacity. Had the spokesperson not said that more than 500 were killed, but merely said more than 500 were victims?

Obviously, either of these outcomes are horrific. And, as noted earlier, any number cited so early after the incident was suspect. But if a news outlet is going to report a statement by Hamas, the specifics matter a lot when a claim made about deaths , initially attributed to Israel’s actions, was shared with and influenced the reactions of tens or perhaps hundreds-of-millions of people around the world.

Any mistakes in regard to the casualties can be put down to a translation error.

As for what caused the damage to the hospital:

From wiki, original sources cited:

@wiki via NY Times

A few days later, an analysis by the New York Times revealed that what the Wall Street Journal described as a “malfunctioning” long-range rocket fired from Gaza was, in fact, a rocket fired from an Israeli position near Nahal Oz; according to the New York Times, it exploded far from the hospital, over the border, and as such it could not have been connected to the hospital explosion.[18][63]

@wiki via Channel 4

Channel 4 News said that the trajectory of the missile that appeared on Al Jazeera Live is inconsistent with the missile launching location stated by the IDF and noted a contradiction in IDF statements on the location of the launching site of the alleged Palestinian missile that hit the hospital in their presentation.[31] Channel 4 News also used Doppler effect sound analysis of the strike and visual analysis of the crater created by the strike. Both analyses indicated that the object that caused the blast would have come from points “east of the hospital not west as the IDF claimed.”

There is conflicting evidence here as to what caused it. But the thing is…in the larger scale of things? Israel have destroyed the Gazan healthcare system. Destroyed multiple hospitals, including burning down Al Shifa.

@Babale

It makes sense that BB would claim GeoConfirmed is “unreliable” since they were one of the early sources to call BS (with proof) on the hospital strike story.

And since that hospital strike story, the IDF have done this:

Attacks on health facilities during the Israel–Hamas war

So here’s my question to you: Israel claimed that in its last raid of Al Shifa, they killed at least 200 “terrorists.” Taking those claims at face value: what did they do with those bodies?

[Banquet_Bear]

@DrDeth

Biden has no 'watch" authority in another sovereign nation. Nor approval. Biden can no more control Netanyahu than he can control Putin.

…so the claims made in the other thread that Biden could put pressure on Bibi were completely 100% unfounded.

Gotcha.

@DrDeth

Biden can not stop the death in Gaza, short of landing the US Marines-which would cause more death and destruction. Only Netanyahu and the Hamas leadership can.

So Biden…and America, are completely ineffective on the world stage, are unable to influence foreign policy anywhere else, and in fact, have never ever done that ever in the entire history of the United States, and are unable to do anything here.

Gotcha.

@DrDeth

trump will be worse- lots worse, and yes if you sit out the election you are supporting trump and more death and destruction- not to mention the end of American Democracy.

Yeah, not going to work on me I’m afraid. I don’t have a vote.

@DrDeth

How? What can Joe Biden do- legally- to stop the deaths in Gaza? Cut aid to Israel? The President can’t do that. Land the Marines at Maswaa Rafab wharf? The president cant do that.

Well nothing, apparently! Thanks for clearing that up. Gazans are doomed either way. A vote for the President is meaningless. Good to know.

@DrDeth

Blaming Biden for Gaza is like blaming Biden for famine in Ethiopia.

I’ll blame Biden if he loses. He had the election in the bag until he decided to go all in on this.

@DrDeth

What Policy? Putting as much legal pressure he can on Netanyahu?

:: adds to the list ::

Biden doesn’t have a policy on Gaza.

Gotcha.

[JKellyMap]

@Banquet_Bear

Biden doesn’t have a policy on Gaza.

Yeah, but what about Mexico’s President Lopez-Obrador’s policy on civil conflict in the Central African Republic? What about it?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Banquet_Bear

For decades marginalised folk have held their nose and voted for the Democrat on the ticket. And here we are in 2024. Abortion banned in multiple states. The Supreme Court in the hands of the right for at least a generation. Trans people having to flee states in order to continue to recieve healthcare. And this week, student protest in support of the Palestinian people have been portrayed as “anti-Semitic” both by the media and from the highest levels of the Biden administration. Many universities have let the police in to “smash them up.”

“Trump will be worse” is not going to work this time. People are going to silently sit out the next election because they cannot, in good concious, vote for the person that they consider to be in part, responsible for a genocide.

So what is the alternative?

Like it or not voters will have two choices for president come November (third parties exist but only two will have a realistic chance).

Lower voter turnout almost always swings in republican’s favor.

Third party candidates may peel votes from either side depending on the candidate but there is almost no chance a third party candidate will win.

So yeah, Biden may be a bad choice if you support the people in Gaza.

Trump will be worse for them (not to mention a whole lot of other things). Period. Full stop.

Vote for whoever you want on election day but do not fool yourself that not voting is the best thing you can do for the people in Gaza. I do not think they will thank you for it if Trump wins but at least you embraced some notion that you showed Biden and the democrats that you don’t like their policy on Gaza!

The realpolitik of voting in the US. No one likes it but it’s what we got.

[DrDeth]

@Banquet_Bear

so the claims made in the other thread that Biden could put pressure on Bibi were completely 100% unfounded.

No, he can and has “put pressure”, but he has no authority no control over Netanyahu, who has just ignored Bidens pressure.

@Banquet_Bear

So Biden…and America, are completely ineffective on the world stage, are unable to influence foreign policy anywhere else, and in fact, have never ever done that ever in the entire history of the United States, and are unable to do anything here.

Influence yes, and that is what Biden is doing. But what we used to do is send in the marine and a couple gunboats. This is no longer a proper solution.

@Banquet_Bear

Well nothing, apparently! Thanks for clearing that up. Gazans are doomed either way. A vote for the President is meaningless. Good to know.

I asked a question what do YOU think Biden can do?

No, not meaningless- Biden has put pressure on Netanyahu to end the slaughter. trump would put pressure on Netanyahu to increase the slaughter. I think that is a difference.

@Banquet_Bear

I’ll blame Biden if he loses. He had the election in the bag until he decided to go all in on this.

Biden does not have and has never “had the election in the bag”. And he has decided to put as much pressure on Netanyahu as his office allows.

@Banquet_Bear

Biden doesn’t have a policy on Gaza.

Putting as much pressure on Netanyahu as his office allows. and sending aid to the people of Gaza.

I asked a question what do YOU think Biden can do?

But you dont seem to have an answer. Too many people think the best policy is to yell loudly and often - “SOMETHING MUST BE DONE1” without having a good answer what that something is. That policy is worse than useless.

@Whack-a-Mole

So yeah, Biden may be a bad choice if you support the people in Gaza.

No, Biden is a Okay choice. He is doing all he can within the legal power of his office to end the slaughter.