How does Israeli military targeting compare to the U.S. in Mosul when Obama was president? I do not know for sure, but this suggest something about it to me:
I’ve also read that the U.S. in Mosul would blindly shell the next street over before an attack, while the Israelis visualize first to avoid hitting obvious civilians. Not saying the Americans are worse – part is that since 2017, some of the photo drone capability may have improved. I am just saying why documenting horrors of war does not equate to atrocities.
The U.S. left Iraq better than we left Afghanistan, but I am not mentioning either except to suggest that the IDF is not an atrocity-oriented military. And it seems to me that, unlike the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Gaza is not a war of choice. Even before October 7, which really made this a war of necessity, southwestern Israel was subject to weekly of daily shelling from Gaza for almost twenty years. Israel responded with, by current standards, small military incursions, and by building playgrounds with overhead barriers to protect from rockets. Hamas sent Israel near-daily rockets, colorful booby-trapped balloons, and built possibly the largest tunnel system in military history – generally without allowing in the civilians who do need air raid protection.
Heartbreaking? Yes. It is heartbreaking that defeating Hamas is taking much longer, and resulting in more deaths, than my last link predicted. Israeli atrocities? Not often.
Was Gaza under a siege, with no airport or port, from 2005 to now? Yes. The cause was attacks on Israeli towns. The way to end these is Hamas surrender, and that still is more likely than some think.
I think some would say the US sending Israel $15 billion in military aid (just happened) that Biden is not, “doing all he can within the legal power of his office to end the slaughter.”
I get this is an intractable problem but sending Israel weapons and Gaza humanitarian aid seems at odds with each other.
Personally, I think the US needs to continue its support of Israel but I know Israel depends a lot on that notion so doesn’t feel the need to listen to US concerns (and I believe has bluntly said as much in the past if in different words).
A reminder: Isreal is using AI to help choosing their targets. And in many cases, deliberately wait until suspects are at home before bombing them, increasing the likelihood of killing civilians.
Thats the thing. I quoted the story of a man who had 40 members of his family killed. There is more to it than “people not liking their policy on Gaza.” There are police snipers stationed on the roof of some universities in the US today. Pro Palestinian people have been doxxed, and fired, and banned from even talking about this conflict. This is also about freedom of speech. It’s about the Columbine generation coming of age.
And Biden has lost their votes.
I think that the administration has conceded that already. They aren’t even pretending.
…it won’t be their fault if Trump wins the next election.
Because let’s be clear here: the numbers in Gaza far exceed the reported numbers, Euro-med monitor suggests 42,000 dead Palestinians so far, and this is most likely the best estimate we have as it includes those that are missing in the rubble.
But we already have more than a hundred men who have lost 40 members of their family. You are talking about the situation as it exists now. And the endgame under Biden looks to be identical to the endgame under Trump. As I said up thread: either Gazans will be forced to leave, they will live under brutal occupation, or they will get killed.
If you want Biden to win, you’ve got to do it without people that support Palestinian liberation. Those are the simple facts of the matter. Biden isn’t getting their votes.
Face it…Trump would have zero problem with Israel erasing Gaza and its people from the map and taking it for themselves. He’d probably encourage it and help them.
You can decide which is the worse choice come November.
I’ve literally just said that the endgame will be the same under Biden or Trump. And I’ve explained what the endgame is. No matter who is in charge, Gaza will, in my opinion, get ethnically cleansed. And it won’t stop there, as the escalations over in the West Bank have shown.
This is just such a meaningless threat. “So Trump would have zero problem with Israel erasing Gaza and its people from the map and taking it for themselves, huh? How is that different to what’s going to happen if Biden wins?”
And that’s the question you need to answer. And Palestinians by and large don’t see any material difference.
No, it will not be the same under either of them. To think so is to have completely missed who Trump is as a person. Trump would have no qualms seeing people killed or starving. Zero (literally zero, he might even revel in it). He probably would never send humanitarian aid because that just costs money. He certainly will only do whatever is in his personal best interests.
You seem to want to punish Biden. But doing so will only make everything for Gaza even worse if Trump is in charge.
Maybe you cannot get all the things you want for Gaza but you do what you can. It’s not great but one choice is CLEARLY better than the other.
If you wanted a better candidate then you and others who feel the same as you do should have run that candidate. But, that ship has sailed for the 2024 election. You’ve got two choices (realistically) or stay home (which is also a choice and a vote of sorts since it will help Trump more).
…will Biden continue to give almost unconditional support to Israel in their war on Gaza?
What changes if Palestinian Americans vote for Biden? Will he support refunding UNRWA? Will he condition support? Will he call them out on their warcrimes?
Or will hundreds of Palestinians continue to die every day at the hands of the IDF? Over a thousand died according to the latest series of Flash updates to just a single IDF soldier. Will that just be the new normal?
Why should Biden get their vote?
I’ve suggested a strategy that will get Biden re-elected. Ignore the pro-Palestinian lobby, focus on getting the votes in the swing states from the voters that matter.
That isn’t a call to “punish Biden.”
I’m trying to give everyone a wake-up call.
Because not only Trump, but ANY Republican is going to destroy America as you know it. So if you want Biden to win, then you have to sit with the uncomfortable reality that you’ve got to throw a lot progressive voters under the bus. And thats what it appears Biden and co have chosen to do.
I just want to make it clear what you are sacrificing. The post that prompted this thread suggested that “Biden is a good option for pro-Palestine voters.” No he isn’t. He’s a bad bad bad option here.
If you’re going there, you better be damn sure it’s the best thing to do. I’m not sure we’re at that point yet, even if you do consider current events a genocide.
Also curious: suppose a voter both cares deeply about Palestinian lives, and is also genuinely convinced that Trump winning is an existential threat to the country, their loved ones, and/or them personally. What would be your advice for them?
Every year, you get a little closer to the ultimate truths of national U.S. politics.
Nobody is steering the ship. The voters, collectively, don’t care. There hasn’t been a coalition in over 60 years and there is no hope of one forming in the foreseeable future. Neither President Biden nor any modern U.S. President would survive a vote of confidence if we had such a mechanism. I can count the number of landmark legislative acts passed in my lifetime on one hand. Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act. Digital Millenium Copyright Act. PATRIOT Act. Dodd-Frank. Affordable Care Act. That’s pretty much it.
I’m not sure Trump won’t be better for Gaza. After all, Trump is pro-Russia, and Russia is pro-Hamas and pro-Iran.
The current global conflict - and make no mistake, this is a global conflict - has Russia, Hamas, Iran and their proxies on one side, and the U.S., Ukraine, Israel and NATO on the other. Trump’s election would weaken the Western alliance and could strengthen Hamas. So vote Republican!
Trump’s point man for Middle Eastern policy and the driving force behind the failed Trump peace plan was his Jewish son-in-law Jared Kushner. Mr. Kushner had previously announced that he was not interested in returning for a future Trump administration.
I was directly replying to a person who asserted that Biden would be a good option for the Palestinians. No, he wouldn’t be.
And sometimes, you just have to accept that some people find what the Biden administration has done is unforgivable, and won’t be voting for him. If you want Biden to win, you need to do more than “Trump bad.”
For the Palestinians? Sure.
For America? If Trump wins, the slide to authoritarianism will be relatively quick. If Biden wins? Increasing Balkanisation. Many Dem states will continue to be Republicans in disguise, like New York with Hochul and Adams defunding public services and funding prisons and the police. Authoritarianism is still on the table. But it will be more of a boiling frog situation.
I don’t have all the answers. But I honestly don’t see an answer to the things that we are seeing globally that have accelerated a move to the right. Gaza is a bit like the canary in the coal mine. Many governments, including my own, institutions, the media, and as we’ve seen over the last few days the universities, have drawn a line over this conflict. They aren’t going to change course. We are going to see more use of AI on the global battlefields, in policing, same with drones, same with all the other technologies pioneered on the Gaza battlefields.
UNRWA USA is an independent 501c3 nonprofit. Not the government.