I’ve always disagreed with the notion that there’s such a thing as black culture as defined in modern terms. I’ve said it before on these boards and I’ll say it again. Many of the beliefs and institutions associated with the concept of black culture can also be associated with poor, white people, especially Southerners. Many of Jeff Foxworthy’s jokes could easily be replaced with ‘you might be ghetto if’.
My experiences differ from those of a black person raised in Detroit in low-income housing. My experiences also differ from blacks who come from ‘old money’. I don’t share their culture as I’m not from generations of low-income housing dwellers nor am I from generations of well-to-do mansion dwellers. When examined closely, you’ll find culture follows socio-economic lines closer than it follows racial lines.
As more than one person has made this mistake, allow me to clearly state what you see on MTV does NOT equal black culture. I know you know this monstro, so it wasn’t directed at you.
I don’t think that saying that a group has its own culture precludes cultural overlap with other groups. Nor do I think all members of a group have to practice or carry a specific cultural artifact in order for such property to “belong” to that group.
For instance, take the controversial and much-discussed phenomenom AAVE. This is not the property of poor Americans. Poor whites do not speak AAVE. The fact that blacks in inner-city Detroit and blacks in suburban Atlanta share similar speech patterns indicates that these groups are connected culturally in some shape or form. I’m a highly educated person who regularly speaks in AAVE (usually around close friends and family). AAVE did not erupt out of thin air. If dialect is not an aspect of culture, what is it?
The descendants of African slaves are tied together through religious worship styles and practices, styles of dress, food, familial interactions,and yes–music! I don’t know why people have a hard to recognizing this. Why is it so taboo?
I grew up in a black world. Although my schooling was integrated, I grew up in a black neighborhood, attended black churches, and had mostly black friends. I live in Newark now, but work in a predominately white environment. So it’s really difficult for me to not contrast my experiences and cultural upbringing with those of my current friends and associates. Perhaps if I had grown up in a mostly white setting, without the Afrocentric focus of my mother, I may feel differently about a bunch of stuff.
I guess my problem with your analysis is that you can say the exact same thing about mainstream American culture, which exists just as sure as you’re born. The fact that Bill Gates has little in common with a rural trailer park resident does not mean that Bill Gates is more similar culturally to rich people all over the world, right? In the US, there’s is a culture–however diffuse–that connects us together and makes us different from other folks. There’s a culture that connects black Americans together and makes them different from other Americans. I can’t see it being any more complicated than that. Yes, it’s a generalization. But not all generalizations are wrong, are they?
It bothers me that another “ethnic” American (for lack of a better term) can talk about his or her culture freely, with no question about whether it really exists as a separate, special thing–while I can’t talk about black culture without people wondering if I’m making something up.
If black culture does not exist, why do we have “black names” like Temika, Keisha, and Hakeem (and do not cite socioeconomics, because I know folks with these names who are not poor). Why is it possible to linguistically profile black people, if black people–in general–do not speak in an identifiable way? Why are black churches frequently portrayed in a stereotypical way in the media, if there is no such thing as a “black church”? Why do black people speak of the “black community”, if such a community does not exist? I’m as individualistic as the next person, but it’s clear to me that black people as a group have a heritage that isn’t class-based or the simple-minded creation of MTV.
I’ll agree with Monstro that there is definitely such a thing as black (American) culture. I’ll also agree that this isn’t a question of poverty or ignorance or anti-social behavior (you might be ghetto if…).
It’s a question of common historical experience. Black Americans have only had full citizenship rights and a guarrantee of equal treatment before the law for 40 years or so. Before the mid-"60’s, the fact of blackness above all else determined where you could live, where you could go to school, what kind of job you could get, where and how you worshipped your diety. So you have 40 years of (relative) freedom vs. 300 + years of bearing a common burden.
No surprise then that black folks have developed distinct ways of speech, dress, food, religion, music, family relations, and social organizations. (And as BrainGLutton pointed out, this derives from England as much as Africa.)
A distinct culture, without question, but more than that, a culture that the rest of the world can’t seem to get enough of. Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the past century (since the Jazz Age at least) you’re probably been a consumer of black America’s cultural production.
It’s a common enough belief that authentic black culture is lower class -even black folks make this argument when it suits their individual purposes. But this leaves out Duke Ellington, MLK, Frederick Douglas.
Go back and listen to one of MLK’s speeches. His speaking style is distinctly black American, it’s word choice, intonation, pronounciation. His style is also powerful, precise, grammatical, informed by the King James and Shakespeare. King grew up in the black Baptist churches of Georgia, the son and grandson of ministers. Culturally speaking, you can’t get any blacker than King, but there’s nothing lower class about his speeches.
I don’t think it’s taboo to talk about black culture, I just reject its existence. A black person who grew up in South Central L.A. (that’s a poor, predominantly black neighborhood, right?) speaks radically different than a person who grew up in a poor, predominantly black neighborhood in Baltimore.
AAVE, I’ve found, is a nebulous term. Mispronouncing the ‘th’ sound as ‘d’ or neglecting to pronounce the letter ‘t’ at the end of words is a lazy way of speaking and is not idiosyncratic to black speakers. If you know how to speak properly, why on earth would you change your pattern of speech with your friends or family? I’m not referring to slang usage, either. Of course I use slang at appropriate times (read: with friends or family) and refrain from saying ‘phat’ or ‘lame’ when, say, giving a speech at a symposium.
I posit your ‘black names’ have close ties with and, in many cases, are directly derived from Muslim and French names - Hakeem, Lekeisha, Dante (I’ve seen it spelled as Dontae, too). I’ll spot you that whenever I hear a name such as Keisha or Tamika, I know to expect a black person. This does not a culture make.
What food dishes are associated with black culture? I presume you’re speaking of fried chicken, chitterlings, collard greens, fried catfish and black-eyed peas? These dishes are by no means exclusive to blacks nor did they suddenly come into existence with the first slaves off the ship. Many, many, many Southerners, both black and white, enjoy these dishes.
I’m very interested in this black style of dress. What’s that all about and how would I know it if I saw it. Dashikis and tams?
Are you defining black culture as, among other things, an amalgamation of AAVE, enjoying Southern comfort food, co-opting Muslim and French names and wearing dashikis?
They don’t speak any more differently than a middle-class Japanese person from Osaka and a middle-class Japanese person from Tokyo; possibly less so. Yet I would not consider this evidence that Japanese culture is non-existent.
*Not to linguists it isn’t.
*It is not lazy. AAVE is not easier or simpler than other vernacular English dialects. It requires just as much effort and intelligence to speak and understand as any of them. People aren’t lazy just because they don’t speak like you, or the way you think they ought to speak.
*There is no such thing as “speaking properly” except in terms of speaking in the way that is best suited to the situation. monstro presumably knows her family and friends better than you do, and if she feels comfortable speaking AAVE around them then that is proper for her situation and you are in no position to tell her otherwise.
I don’t think you’re in any position to tell her that her culture doesn’t exist either. You don’t have to consider yourself a part of that same culture, and indeed it would be foolish to treat African-American culture as a monolithic. However, some African-Americans clearly do feel that they have a distinct cultural identity and heritage, and I don’t think that’s some sort of mass delusion.
Fair enough, monstro, Belowjob2.0 and Lamia. While my opinion hasn’t changed, I can see how it could be misconstrued as insulting. It is not my intention to disparage anyone and please forgive me if I have.
Apparently not, since language experts accept the existence of “black English”. Are you a linguist? Is there a good reason why you doubt the realness of AAVE?
Um, everyone changes their pattern of speech depending on the audience. I would hope a businessman speaks to his family differently than he does to the folks at the office.
It’s called code switching. Everyone does it. But funny, only blacks get labeled “lazy” when they do it. I’m offended by your intimation. I don’t purposefully “mispronounce” anything. I speak using the language I find most comfortable and familiar.
What? Names are definitely cultural. No, they do not encompass an entire culture, but they point to its existence.
I find it funny that you brush off the significance of black names while admitting they exist. The fact that Temikas in Oregon and Temikas in Florida and Temikas in New Jersey are 99.9% of the time black indicates that black Americans share something. If that something isn’t culture, then I guess I don’t know what culture is.
And just how did Southerners come to eat these foods? Were the English colonist frying chicken and eating chitterlings prior to their exposure to black Americans? Why isn’t fried chicken considered a Northern food? How did it come to be that the exact foods you listed are known as “soul food”, aka “black American cuisine”? Are people simply imagining a connection that doesn’t exist?
The art of deep frying food is African, not European.
Collards and chitterlings (and other parts of the pig) were considered “cast off” foods on the plantation, and thus black slaves were able to create their own dishes using these products.
Why is it that soul food restaurants are so common in black neighborhoods all over the country, if soul food is simply “Southern”. Why is that my grandmother, who lives in Indiana of all places, regularly whips up a delicious assemblage of “Southern” cuisine if she has never left the greater Chicagoland area.
I eat Chinese food all the time. In fact, millions of non-Chinese people eat Chinese food because it’s fucking delicious. Does that mean there is no such thing as “Chinese” food? That because everyone loves it, everyone had something to do with it’s creation? That’s it’s not special?
You say this sarcastically, but yes–Afrocentric clothing is a part of black American culture. You don’t sound like someone who regularly sports Kenti cloth. Neither do I (although I do own some very nice dashikis). But lots of black people do. Can you say the same for other ethnic groups?
I’m not defining anything, Juanita. I’m simply pointing to examples of culture. I don’t know what your definition of culture is. Mine includes food, names, clothing, music, and dialect. If these things aren’t culture, enlighten me. Give an example of cultural property (say, from the US) that DOES NOT include these things.
Thanks, monstro. That means a lot to me and I hope you understand how sincere I was.
As to the OP, why do we need yet another term? Your reason doesn’t flesh out for me. I’ve never had a problem with the term black and if you need to differentiate from a black person whose ancestors came over on a slave ship and a black person who is first a first-generation Tanzanian American, what’s wrong with Tanzanian American?
Whatever consensus you reach, if it means applying yet another label to me that differs from the term ‘black’ leave me out of it as black’s just dandy with me.
JuanitaTech, JustPlain American.
At the risk of piling on, the dialectual nature of AAVE has been noted on this board on many occasions. It is not a matter of substituting /d/ for voiced /th/ (a trait shared by several Eastern European groups) or /t/ for unvoiced /th/ (a trait shared by speakers influenced by Irish) or of pronouncing the word “ask” as /aks/ (a trait shared by speakers of the Midlands of England). Rather, it is an entire constellation of pronunciations, syntax, grammar, and vocabulary that are identifiable and predictable from one group of speakers to the next. The rules of AAVE have been recorded and discussed for over 30 years and the dialect is quite well documented and specific.
