What will the UK do wrt Brexit?

[JacobSwan]

@Wrenching_Spanners

The Freedom of Movement issue isn’t about someone crossing a border. The principle does apply to visa-free travel between EU countries for EU citizens, but that will almost certainly be the case under whatever post-Brexit (or non-Brexit) scenario occurs. Freedom of Movement means that almost any EU citizen has the right to come to the UK to seek work. They’re also entitled to welfare benefits, although those are more restricted.

I just wanted to point out that this has always been a 2 way door. As a Brit who has spent the past 5 years working across Europe, I see Freedom of Movement as the best thing the EU have ever achieved. I just wish more people would see it as the opportunity it is, rather than just complaining about people coming over here and taking our jobs.

[MichaelEmouse]

@Stanislaus

Am I wrong in thinking that one of the outcomes from last night is that we now know that the Parliamentary Conservative Party has basically ceased to exist?

In Parliament, the point of parties is that they group together people who share the same policies and, with occasional minor exceptions on minor issues, vote the same way. What we saw last night was a group of MPs who are nominally of the same party voting every which way on a major issue, with those in charge of making sure they vote the party line totally unable to do so. Nor indeed was there a clear party line. Senior members of the party who are ostensibly collectively responsible for setting its policy abstained on a key vote with, as yet, no consequences. This is not, in fact, a parliamentary party. I don’t what it is. But whatever it is, it plainly cannot command a majority of the House of Commons.

[…]

It’s fair to say that a general election might not improve the situation. Brexit causes intra-party conflict and inter-party agreements.

There seems to be a political realignment in the West. In the 18th and 19th centuries, it was the holdovers from antiquity and feudalism against democracy and capitalism over things like slavery and voting. Then it became the left/right we’re familiar with from 20th century history. Those issues are less intense battlegrounds now because no major party in a major Western country is both willing and able to abolish private property over the means of production or abolish the welfare state (do you see the GOP proposing to abolish Medicare?).

Now the great political fissures seem to be morphing into something else. That’s probably why you have so much intra-party disagreement and inter-party agreement; A young educated Tory and a young educated Labourite both living in London may have a lot more in common when it comes to today’s questions than they do with old uneducated Tories and Labourites in formerly mining/industrial small Northern towns.

@robardin

Which is why the whole “no hard border in Northern Ireland” is a complete contradiction, because if you’re going to say “we will not accept EU Freedom of Movement”, and the Republic of Ireland is an EU member state and Northern Ireland is part of the UK, how do you not have a hard border?

“no hard border in Northern Ireland” can have 2 possible meanings. It can either mean no hard border between NI and the rest of the UK or no hard border between NI and the rest of Ireland. I think what they want is a hard border between NI and the rest of Ireland but they don’t want to make it explicit, just say “No” to every other option and either play ostrich or try to shift the blame to others for the necessary consequences of their choices.

[Malden_Capell]

@Wrenching_Spanners

By the way, for those following along, there will be a vote on a second referendum tonight. Speaker Bercow selected a second referendum amendment (amendment h) to be voted on as part of the consideration into the government’s motion on the extension of the leave date.

“instructs the Prime Minister to

request an extension to the Article 50 period at the European Council in March 2019

sufficient for the purposes of legislating for and conducting a public vote in which the

people of the United Kingdom may give their consent for either leaving the European

Union on terms to be determined by Parliament or retaining the United Kingdom’s

membership of the European Union.”.

I’ll be curious to see if Jeremy Corbyn has the courage to have Labour back the amendment. Bet he waffles instead.

Seems it’s going nowhere - labour and Tory Remainers and the official People’s Vote campaign have rejected Amendment H as premature. Can’t say I disagree, actually.

Bercow also rejected an amendment to exclude another referendum as an option - quite right, too.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GreenWyvern]

They are right not to support the amendment for another referendum. It’s necessary to separate the two issues - extension of A50, and then what to do with that extension.

Many MPs may want vote for an extension, but not for a referendum. Bundling the two together isn’t a good idea. Get the extension sorted, then vote separately on a referendum and other options next week.

[Gyrate]

The new Economist is pulling no punches:

Mrs May boasted this week of “send[ing] a message to the whole world about the sort of country the United Kingdom will be”. She is not wrong: it is a laughing-stock.

[GreenWyvern]

The referendum amendment was defeated by 334 to 85 - 249 votes.

[MichaelEmouse]

@Gyrate

The new Economist is pulling no punches:

“send[ing] a message to the whole world about the sort of country the United Kingdom will be”

Maybe it’s me but every time I’ve heard someone talk about “sending a message”, they were trying to justify a bad move. I don’t know what underlies it.

[Inner_Stickler]

Powell amendment fails 311-314. I didn’t realize there was an amendment to the amendment!

[Baron_Greenback]

@Inner_Stickler

Benn amendment fails 311-314.

That was an amendment to the Benn amendment. The unamended Benn amendment is being voted on now.

[Baron_Greenback]

the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the Benn amendment

[Gyrate]

Amen(d)!

[Inner_Stickler]

@Baron_Greenback

That was an amendment to the Benn amendment.

Sorry, I was looking at the list on the Guardian website and then got interrupted by a co-worker and thought they’d moved onto I when I got to the stream. :smack:

[Greg_Charles]

I’m still curious how many of the Conservative MPs voted for the motion with the Spelman amendment, i.e., not to leave the EU at any time with no deal, not just on March 29. A lot of the reporting on yesterday’s festivities has been muddy, but as I understand it the vote was 312 to 308 to add the amendment to the original motion and then 321 to 278 to approve the motion with the amendment. Are there roll calls for these votes?

May was opposed to both of these actions, but did the “whip” order, which apparently means “vote with your party or resign”, apply to both votes or just one of them? Has anyone actually resigned?

[Baron_Greenback]

@Inner_Stickler

Sorry, I was looking at the list on the Guardian website and then got interrupted by a co-worker and thought they’d moved onto I when I got to the stream. :smack:

It’s easy done

[Baron_Greenback]

@Greg_Charles

I’m still curious how many of the Conservative MPs voted for the motion with the Spelman amendment, i.e., not to leave the EU at any time with no deal, not just on March 29. A lot of the reporting on yesterday’s festivities has been muddy, but as I understand it the vote was 312 to 308 to add the amendment to the original motion and then 321 to 278 to approve the motion with the amendment. Are there roll calls for these votes?

Here you go:’

Division 357

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-13/division/D2E19B0A-54FD-4F8B-AFD9-7398F6D8FD45/UK’SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Names

Division 359

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-13/division/C4CB4309-B13D-416F-9BA6-725F2D428748/UK’SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Names

Sortable by name, party etc

[Inner_Stickler]

Ayes - 312
Nos - 314

Now the Benn amendment failed.

[Baron_Greenback]

Benn amendment defeated ayes 312 noes 314

[AlsoNamedBort]

@Baron_Greenback

the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the amendment to the Benn amendment

Those responsible for amending the amendment have been amended.

[Malden_Capell]

Maybe the real amendment is the friends we make along the way.

[iiandyiiii]

Damn it, I have to ask again… what exactly is going on? Is there movement towards or away from an extension and a possible new referendum?