You think that Wales is a colony of England?
Well, it should accept responsibility for the choice that it made.
I don’t think that translates simplistically into “accept the consequences of the choice that it made” if the obviously alternative, of reconsidering the choice that it made in the light of fuller information and a clearer understanding, is arbitrarily ruled out by those who think democracy, like a condom, is single-use only.
“[Wales] should accept the resposibility for the choice it made.”
Quite. That is all I am asking. Not that it was a wise choice. Simply that is was a choice that Wales made for itself, which cannot be pinned on anyone else, as Dr. Drake sought to do.
I really did not seek to do that. I’m trying not to hijack the thread here, but I need to make it clear: the relationship between Wales and England is a completely separate issue from how the two regions voted in the Brexit referendum. I never claimed nor thought that Wales voted to Remain (some areas did, which is also the case with England), and I never thought that their historical status as a militarily conquered nation governed from London with all that that entails gave them a special out that other regions of the UK would not have.
I apologize for even bringing it up: would you either take it to another thread or drop it, please? I’m not trying to be a jerk or avoid discussion, but this has been a good thread and I feel this is derailing it. I won’t respond further here.
She has a major part of her party behind the deal, as much as anything else maybe out of loyalty/exhaustion/fear of the consequences of voting against: but since she has no majority in the House, she needs all her party and enough from the minor parties to back it. There are any number of formal and informal groupings of MPs pushing particular brands of hard and soft Brexit, the diehards among whom would rather have a no-deal exit than this deal, not least because the Northern Irish DUP is so vehemently opposed.
But she has been trying anything and everything to square the circle before trying to force it back into the round hole (and if that sounds confused, that makes it all the more apt a metaphor) - in other words, to find some incentive that will get enough of the diehards on board without trying to reopen the whole negotating process with the EU.
The latest is over the timing of her departure (to get recalcitrant Tories with their own eye on the leadership on board, though god knows why they would want it - IMO it says as much about Boris Johnson’s dubious grip on reality as anything else he’s done), or hints of more dosh for Northern Ireland (to get the DUP on board). One idea floating around was that Labour would abstain and let it through, if there were then a second referendum on the deal vs. Remain: but neither she nor the Brexiteers want that, and Corbyn is visibly lukewarm, when he can be induced to have anything much to do with the debate.
Although she has had meetings with other parties, it doesn’t sound as though she’s putting in much effort to meet their points of view, just sticking to the same old script in the way that’s clearly infuriated many among the EU27.
We now wait to see if the Commons will have another go to take control of the process and hold a series of “indicative votes” on the different options on offer. But both the deal and no-deal have been comprehensively rejected already, so it’s a matter of testing the waters on the other options to see if there’s any chance of finding something that enough MPs can get behind.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Once the EU money dries up post-Brexit, the physical infrastructure will crumble and it will be cut off from England. South Wales will form a socialist dictatorship run by Leanne Wood, North Wales will devolve into roaming bands of angry druids, and Aberystwyth will petition to become part of Ireland.
Update: here’s a reasonably clear and concise summary of what may happen this week:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/the-week-ahead-for-brexit-third-time-lucky-for-may
The hardline Brexiteers aren’t exactly threatening to split the party: they want to run it. Those who wanted to remain, and now would vote for a soft-ish Brexit (customs union as a minimum), are probably in the majority, and likewise mostly don’t want formally to break away. A handful of more independent spirits on the Remain/Soft Brexit side already have done so, but there aren’t yet any signs of others following. On the other hand, the Tories are as split on this issue as they have been for years, and MichaelEmouse is probably right that the hard core Brexiteers are never going to let this issue die, even if they are somehow persuaded in the present situation not to push “no deal” to the point of obstructing any other sort of deal - but they may not be that many. The trouble is that the lack of a clear majority gives smaller groupings within the Tories much more power than they would otherwise have.
These last two years there is nothing I have looked forward to more than the roaming bands of angry druids. The first angry druid I see, it will all have been worth it. Twas never the unicorns for me. I was in it for the druids.
(Little known only somewhat alternative EU fact: every last bit of infrastructure built in Wales after 1542 was funded by the EU.)
When the time of the ancient prophecy draws nigh, I shall proclaim myself as the hereditary King of both Gwynedd and Powys, and the direct descendant of King Arthur. Then the Wyvern will become a Dragon, and the roaming bands of angry druids will be tamed. Just saying…
Wales breaking away is not going to do wonders for future seasons of Doctor Who. Sort yourselves out, please!
Ah Dibble, the voice of sense at last! What we need right now is someone who will speak out for Dr Who. Because that’s who we need to sort out this mess, it really is that bad right now.
I think I raised that question earlier in this thread, and don’t think anybody replied to it:
Supposing there is a “no deal Brexit” by default come March 29th, followed by some days or weeks of intolerable chaos, such that there was an immediate and clear mandate from the masses to hit some kind of undo/reset button.
Article 50 specified the mechanism for a member nation to withdraw from the EU, and there is a standing ruling that a member nation that had begun the process of withdrawal could rescind that decision at any point before it actually happened (March 29th, 2019, in this case - leaving aside the “extension date” in April that is also on the table, from the EU side, pending only the British government’s asking for it).
Is there any protocol for a “fast track” for an exited nation to come back in should they so desire, or is the default process for such a scenario to reapply for the bloc as any other non-member nation might do so?
I don’t believe so. They would have to re-apply like any other country.
“Don’t you think she looks tired?”
In which case it’s unlikely the UK will be able to rejoin with the same special opt-outs they have now (like a commitment to adopt the Euro).
Parliament just passed the Letwin amendment. Some Remainer Ministers resigned to back it. Wasn’t even close. Back of the net!
Just need Amendment F to pass now…crossing fingers and toes…
Odd, Amendment F was narrowly defeated. Not that important though. Letwin is the real deal. Vote on motion as amended now proceeding.
Utter pandemonium in the House as Bercow insults Greg Hands, and he makes it worse in apologising. Christ.
The Speaker makes the mistake of saying what he really thinks. Ooops.
The arcane rules and chummy, rowdy atmosphere of Parliament are quaint at first and sometimes interesting and amusing but it can look unprofessional and inefficient. I’d expect the same sort of scene in a pub from drunken hooligans arguing sports.