No, it’s not a small change in parliamentary procedure.
You are suggesting that even though the UK has invoked Article 50 and is planning to leave the EU, the EU should now take seats away from member states of the EU, disrupting the elections in those EU states that people have been campaigning for, and to hold those seats vacant for the UK, on the off-chance that the UK will change its mind and revoke article 50.
So you want the EU to provide special treatment for the state that has indicated it wants out, to the prejudice of EU states that are staying in.
That is not a small change in parliamentary procedure. It’s yet another version of “Britain wants out! But we want special treatment so it doesn’t hurt!”
You’re in, or you’re out. The EU parliament is the elected body that governs the EU. You don’t take seats away from members and hold them for a country that is leaving.
No, the worst possible consequence is that member states of the EU are denied their allocated representation in Parliament, because the state that does not want to be a member thinks it has a claim on those seats.
You’re in, or you’re out. Britain chose to invoke Article 50. It’s on the way out. Unless it revokes its declaration under Article 50, it has no claim to have seats kept vacant for it while it dithers.
It is a small change. There are seats in the European Parliament currently occupied by UK MEPs. They would either be empty, or occupied by other MEPs, depending on how things are arranged. The only people who miss out on representation or lose seats are the British, which is fine as we will still be in the process of leaving.
That’s one option - a long extension, with the UK having no MEPs.
The others are us having European elections during a long extension, leading to us having MEPs involved in writing the rules of the institution were trying to leave, and presumably if we do leave the necessity of new elections across Europe to fill those seats, or leaving with no deal which fucks everything.
Or, we could revoke Article 50, and then retrigger whenever the Tories next win an election, as they’d see it as unfinished business.
I will give your explanation of “because Hitler” all the consideration it deserves.
There’s a reason those who are fanatical sticklers for rules against all reason are colloquially referred to as Nazis and Little Hitlers, and it’s not because bending and/or mending the rules is a terrible thing…
Exactly. Thats why the process needs to be extended.
So define one. Write it, vote it through, and act on it.
And there we go, the true colours revealed at last. The disdain, if not hatred, for the UK being the real motivator here. You are quite happy to see yourself suffer as long as we suffer worse, and you can keep your smug sense of superiority.
Steophan, what you don’t seem to realize is that the U.K. has had two full years since invoking Article 50* to solve these problems. Two years in which it could have made these decisions.
You are asking everybody else to make exceptions at the eleventh hour because you didn’t do your homework and are just now worried you might fail.
If the UK had not invoked Article 50, there would have been no reason to worry about the EU Parliament and its seats. But it did.
If the UK had prepared an acceptable deal to exit and exited yesterday, there would have been no need to worry about the EU Parliament and its seats. But it did not.
If the UK had had a clear plan to exit the EU that just needed more time, or rescinded Article 50, or anything at all, really, the EU could accommodate that. But how long is the EU supposed to enable British incompetence? (That’s not a slur against British people, but an assessment of May and her Parliament.)
*something it did unilaterally, without input from the EU.
If anything, I am amazed by the professionalism coming out of Brussels on this. They really seem to have their shit together – they know what they want and negotiate efficiently, and are willing to make compromises, but also know when to set limits and why they are doing it.
Maybe it’s because I only see the english-speaking media, but all the drama seems to be happening on the other side of the channel.
Look, it’s quite simple. We like “The Rules”. Not perfect, but they worked reasonably well so far.
UK doesn’t like “The Rules”. I get it. That’s why UK wants to leave (despite the numerous opt-outs and exceptions it already got). Makes sense. But…now you want EU to change “The Rules” because UK is leaving? Man, there’s no way to please the Brits…
How about this counter-proposal: the UK changes it’s rules so that whatever freaking Parliament comes out of an election, it has the power and ability to figure out what it’s citizens want, make a workable policy and actually implement it! Maybe this is the right time for you to write down a Constitution…ya know, “don’t let a good crisis go to waste”.
I strongly suspect that Kobal2 was kidding, but…ok, you got us. Yes, it’s true, everyone hates you and wants to see you suffer! The Frogs because Agincourt, the Krauts because WWI, the Spaniards because you sunk their Armada, the Dutch because you stole their colonies while they were invaded by the French (hmm…say, shouldn’t the Dutch hate the French even more?), the Portuguese because you have a 800 years old alliance with them…wait, this doesn’t really make sense. Well, I’ll stick with it anyway. The Italians because Taranto, the Polish because you don’t like their plumbers, the Belgians because you entered WWI to protect them…wait, this one doesn’t make sense either. Eh, I give up…
Look, whatever historical reasons the “continentals” might have to hate the UK, I guarantee you that each European country has ten times more historical reasons to hate any of their neighbors. If there’s one undisputed achievement of the EU, is that it managed to get all these countries out of each others’ throat and make them (grudgingly, sometimes) work together. At least for now.
The cause(s) for whatever (real or perceived) disdain you might feel from EU countries has its roots in the much more recent past and in the way UK interacted with EU over the last few decades.
You’re assuming the EU has the legal authority to postpone elections. Where are you getting that? The EU operates according to the treaties, which set binding rules that govern all the members. Where does it say that the EI can postpone elections? And why should it do so for a member that wants out?
No, the time pressure has been caused by the UK invoking Article 50, a unilateral choice by the British government, and then not being able to reach agreement within Britain on the conditions for its departure.
Except there is no indication that will happen even with a longer extension, so what’s the point?
As far as I can tell, the position of the British government is as follows:
Britain is leaving the EU. That was decided by the British people in the referendum.
The House of Commons has rejected the deal the British government negotiated with the EU, three times.
The House of Commons has rejected leaving the EU without a deal.
The British government has rejected holding a general election to allow the people to resolve the issue.
The British government has rejected holding another referendum to try to break the deadlock.
The British government wants more time, apparently to keep putting its plan to the Commons in hopes that perhaps by vote 27 it will pass.
That’s just crazy talk.
Look, if the British political process could toss May out of No. 10, and a new PM could go to the EU and say, “We’ll either hold a general election or a new referendum, but we need time to do either of those” maybe the EU would be willing to extend. But more time just to dither? No.
Steophan: How many times do we have to explain to you, the EU will gladly give us a longer extension, in fact some EU leaders have said that they would prefer a longer extension. The problem is that May, and many of the leave supporting nutjobs in Parliament refuse to hold the EU elections neccessary to do it. THIS IS ENTIRELY THE UK’S FAULT.
At every step they have been more than fair in how they’ve dealt with the fuckwits we’ve put in charge. Do you really think they should dismantle their entire governmental & legal system just to accomodate us? You keep talking about the damage to the EU from us leaving, but they have accepted that, made plans, and no longer consider it a critical issue.
You do realise that the UK isn’t some special little country, whose needs should be put above all others? That we don’t have an empire anymore so we don’t get to dictate how other countries treat us? It’s attitudes like yours that have got us into this situation in the first place, expecting the EU countries to defer to us, and blaming them for anything that goes wrong. Grow up and accept that our government has fucked up, and continues to fuck up, and that no-one else is to blame.
I’ll play Devil’s advocate here, which I may regret: It’s less about whose fault it is than about who can help.
You might see the UK as a boat that’s been shipwrecked by a hopeless captain, a crew of muppets and half the passengers suffering from a bad case of Dunning-Kruger. Imagine you were on that sinking ship and saw the well-run EU ship nearby where people have their shit together enough to actually do something constructive. Wouldn’t you find it a little too formal if they said that rescuing isn’t part of their job?
It is the UK’s fault but we’re here & now, in this situation, the EU is the only one that has some chance of being helpful. In a way, it’s not an insult to the EU to focus on what they could do; It’s having given up hope that the UK government can do anything right at this point.
Focusing on the worst and the shittiest people involved can exert a strong pull when we feel frustration with a problem. But like one of the EU officials said, don’t forget about the half of Britons who voted to remain; They’re Europeans too. We should have as much sympathy for them as we do for American Democrats even though the lesser half of their countrymen are shitheads who will keep blaming everyone else.
I’m not at all sure about this argument but I can kinda see it having some potential merit. One would still have to make a convincing case that any help the EU extends won’t be pissed away.
But they’ve already offered what little help they can. They’ve extended the exit for a few weeks, to give Britain some time, and they’ve suggested they might give more time if the UK government comes back with a concrete plan to resolve the political impasse in Britain.
There’s really not much more they can do with a country that maintains it is leaving, but continues to want special treatment that may start to breach the legality/legitimacy of the EU’s own Parliament.
Or cut short. Because everyone but you realizes you can’t keep refusing to accept both options of a strict binary. This isn’t gender studies. You can’t be Euroqueerian.
Why would we ? It’s your proposal. You still have MEPs. Contact them, tell them of your common sense solution, let them put it forward. I’m sure the measure will pass by a hefty margin, if only due to the sheer amount of good will they have built up over the years of calling everyone else useless idiots.
:rolleyes:Yes. Because that paragraph was written in dead earnest. You got me, I let the mask slip and revealed the hateful demon behind it… And remember, we were talking about Farage. Yes, that random example is definitely the EU hating on you, showing disdain and displaying a smug sense of superiority.
Word of advice though : if I were you I should get off that cross soon-ish. What with the recent Article 13 thing and all, Jesus might be coming for your ass re:his copyrights.
I see your point, but at this point anything the EU could do would only be of harm to them, and I can’t come up with any arguement for them to do this with the way we’re acting. It’s not far off the arguement some leavers made that Ireland should leave the EU, thereby solving the border issue. Hugely helpful to the UK, but terrible for Ireland.
It’s not a small change. Any more than disenfranchising, say, Northern Ireland while it’s still a part of the UK would be a small change. It’s fundamental. And fundamentally objectionable.
It is absolutely unthinkable that EU citiznes would be denied representation in the Parliament, or be denied the right to vote for their representatives. If the UK wants an extension, want to remain in the EU for a longer period, then it wants to participate in EU elections; it’s as simple as that. If it doesn’t want to participate in EU elections, then however much it says it wants an extension it actually doesn’t; it wants the *appearance[.i] of an extension without the reality. It wants to cherry-pick elements of EU membership while repudiating EU membership. We’re back where we were three years ago, with Brexiters saying they would end freedom of movement and in the same breath claiming that the UK was being bullied by being excluded from the single market.
That’s the political case. The legal case is that EU citizens have a right to representation, a right to vote. If elections are organised in which some EU citizens have the right to vote but others are excluded for political convenience, then the legal validity of those elections is called into question. Holding the elections on this basis would jeopardise the very basis of the Parliament, and the validity of all the legislation which it enacts. This is not a problem which would be cured by the subsequent departure from the EU of the UK; it could only be cured by holding valid elections in conformity with the requirements of the Treaties.
You may think that the European Court of Justice would be slow to reach such a drasting conclusion, and you may be right. But, really, the consequences should they do so would be profound, and why should the EU run a legal risk of this nature in order to facilitate the Tory party’s continuing psychodrama, and to accomodate their schizophrenic approach to the EU? Doing this would feed the very fantasies and delusions that have brought the UK to the pass that it’s in.
If you don’t want British citizens to have the voting rights of EU citizens they you don’t want the UK’s membership of the EU to be extended until the next EU elections; stop lying to yourselves.
