Ok, I could have said “why would someone expect to be able to be allowed to permanently reside in another country with no independent means of supporting themselves?” in the first place, but I was trying to be kind at an emotional moment.
Maybe if the EU hadn’t been insufferably obtuse for its entire existence, the whole thing wouldn’t have happened.
And healthcare, now that there won’t be any reciprocal agreement re: the NHS?
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This comment would make me laugh if I wasn’t already feeling upset about it. Entire Fucking Point indeed.
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…that would have been an even sillier question. Why would someone expect to be able to do something that they were legally entitled to do? Because that was how the EU worked. Because that was the system that the UK have said goodbye too. Because that was how everything worked until people made an emotional, illogical decision to vote leave.
There was no “kindness” in your original question. “Why won’t you be able to retire to Italy” isn’t a "kind question. You spared nobody by asking it. It wasn’t a better option than the question you just asked now.
The EU have done nothing wrong. The whole thing happened because the UK decided to leave. Its time the voters took responsibility for their actions and stop blaming everyone else. If you voted leave then this is on you.
Excellent and powerful article about the celebrations last night.
Parliament Square was a knuckle-dragging carnival of irredeemable stupidity
I’m not the one bringing emotion into it. As for illogical, that remains to be seen.
Laws change, things move on. Some people are better off, some are worse off. That’s life. The fact remains that non-EU citizens are still legally entitled to live in Italy. Also, is there not still the possibility that some sort of reciprocal arrangement will be made? Or is that off the table?
As you yourself said, I have no idea about SanVito’s retirement plans or finances. It was and remains a genuine question, with a number of possible answers. One possible answer was “because non-EU citizens aren’t allowed to reside permanently in Italy”. Another would be “because I can’t afford to support myself without reciprocal pension and healthcare arrangements”. We’ve covered both of those and while it’s unfortunate if people have to change their plans, I don’t see anything inherently wrong here. No doubt there are other possibilities too but in not going to press the point because I doubt SanVito wants to publicly discuss it.
I do take responsibility. And a lot of people voted to leave because they viewed the EU, as a whole, as insufferable. Fault on both sides, of course, but let’s not pretend the EU is blameless. That’s the sort of patronising attitude that lost the referendum in the first place.
…when you claimed that you posted to “be kind” you bought emotion into it. This is Great Debates. You don’t need to spare anyone their feelings.
It doesn’t “remain to be seen.” We are already seeing the consequences. SanVito’s story being a case-in-point. What does the UK gain by making it almost impossible for SanVito to retire in Italy?
That’s a pretty fucking long way off from where you started. The fact remains that non-Americans are still legally entitled to live in America. The fact remains that non-Australians are legally entitled to live in Australia. The fact remains that almost every country in the world allows other people to legally live in that country.
But that **isn’t **the point. The point is that the process to retire in Italy was a very easy process for anyone living in the EU: and that process is now out-of-reach to citizens of the UK.
LOL.
You should worry about getting a trade deal on the table first.
You are missing the fucking point yet again.
SanVito said “Goodbye to my retirement to Italy.”
That obviously means all the options are off the table. But you responded: “Why won’t you be able to retire to Italy?”
You then provided a cite that explained exactly why SanVito won’t be able to retire to Italy.
When this was pointed out to you you blamed the cite, then posted an even worse cite that was nothing more than an anecdote.
You then completely pivoted your position, claiming you meant to say “Why would someone expect to be able to be allowed to permanently reside in another country with no independent means of supporting themselves?” But the answer to that is obvious: they would have expected that because it was legal to do so. It only became an impossibility because people voted leave.
Before Brexit retirement was on the table for SanVito. Post-Brexit its off the table. That was SanVito’s point. Everything else posted by you is simply a distraction.
Then you should apologise to SanVito for ruining their retirement plans.
The people who voted to leave because they viewed the EU, as a whole, as insufferable made an emotional, illogical decision that will ultimately hurt them more than remaining in the EU.
Rubbish.
No need to pretend. The EU are 100% blameless.
Don’t take away the agency of the people that voted Leave. If they voted based on “attitude” and on a perception of “EU being insufferable” then that is entirely on them: not on anyone else.
If Italy no longer want to take SanVito that is a shame, but the UK doesn’t want to give the same unrestricted access to the EU27, a policy I agree with, so naturally it will have an effect on those trying to go the other direction.
@Banquet Bear: OK bro. You’re obviously a lot more emotionally invested in this than I am, which seems to have given you a view of reality at least as warped as anyone who thinks Brexit will be an unqualified success. So I’m not going to continue to debate with you, even in the knowledge that you will claim this as a victory.
Actually I was more than happy with freedom for all inside the EU. I am more than happy with my Polish work colleagues and my Spanish neighbours and my German friend who all took that freedom of choice to move here. It makes us a richer, more cosmopolitan and welcoming society.
Turns out I was misled. Turns out we’re a bunch of little Englanders after all. The fact remains that my EU citizenship has been stolen from me and am really pissed off about it. It diminishes us as a nation and today I’m ashamed to be associated with half my country folk.
Only saving grace is that I live in a firmly open, liberal, remain city. Local businesses are flying the EU flag at half mast today.
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…do you have a habit of accusing people you engage with of “being emotional?” I’m not emotionally invested in this at all. I don’t live in the UK. What part of my reality is warped? How is any of this the fault of the EU?
You aren’t “debating me.” You’ve bought nothing to the table.
And you aren’t my bro.
Some people who aren’t used to you see a massive line by line rebuttal and assume you invested way too much time for it to be a casual observation. I said right away that DeadCat’s post was powerfully stupid but you still made me want to set my computer on fire with your annoying style.
Those massive line-by-line rebuttals are kind of standard operating procedure around here. And on most message boards. But I agree, “you aren’t my bro” was - just mean!
So it sounds like there is a significant possibility of no trade deal.
I’m at a loss, to be honest, to figure out what sort of leverage the UK alone thinks it might have with the EU countries in trade - especially after telling the EU “screw you idiots, we’re leaving”. Resentment of that alone will probably sink the UK negotiators. Besides I suspect the EU can do without trade from the UK quite easily - more easily than the reverse, anyway.
I doubt it, it’s all noise to satisfy the base, and once he’s shown to appear to have exhausted all options, he’ll say he was forced by whoever to accept particular terms and they’ll see it as a win.
For me this is a minor point, the bigger and more pressing issue is Scotland, I mean, do any Conservative party members even care about the Union anymore?
I doubt it, it’s all noise to satisfy the base, and once he’s shown to appear to have exhausted all options, he’ll say he was forced by whoever to accept particular terms and they’ll see it as a win.
For me this is a minor point, the bigger and more pressing issue is Scotland, I mean, do any Conservative party members even care about the Union anymore?
For once, the Tory Party Conference might prove rather more interesting this year. By September, the reality of the trade talks will be biting, and it’ll be interesting to see if any Scottish Tories are much in evidence to remind the rest that there’s a pretty decisive election to the Edinburgh parliament next year.
Looks like Sinn Fein might be the next government in Ireland, this is going to be fun! Yay!
They might be part of the Government but they won’t be the sole party of Government under the proportional representation system Ireland uses .
To show the difference between the UK system ( FPTP ) Thatcher once got 37/% of the vote and had a 187 seat majority while at the same time Fianna Fail got 44% of the vote and were a minority Government ( supported by independents )