What will the US Soldiers do when they reach Baghdad?

Here’s a topic for all of us armchair generals–
What SPECIFIC actions do you think will be taken by American soldiers when they roll into the streets of Baghdad?

The first few days of the war (if it ever begins) will be a video game.
ACT I:
We at home, and the soldiers in the field, will passively watch black-and-white TV monitors of smart bombs. But after that, the REAL, sweaty,dirty, bloody part will have to follow in:
ACT 2.( But this aint no theatrical performance --it’s deadly serious.)
Suppose 500 vehicles and 5000 soldiers drive for 2-3 days across the desert, and reach the outskirts of Baghdad. WHAT NEXT? There will be 4 million civilians in their homes, and 10 thousand Iraqi soldiers, also stationed on rooftops and inside the civilian apartment buildings. What will the American tanks do?The roads will be lined with Iraqi soldiers shooting from bedroom windows–and possibly with unarmed civilians rushing into the streets to sit down in front of the tanks.How will the US soldiers be able to fight, when there is a CNN cameraman on every corner?

Will they open fire on civilian buildings? Or maybe just sit there in the desert, surrounding the city like a medieval siege?

If they enter the city, where will they drive to?
The Presidential Palace? And if they do take control of a 10-block area around the Palace, what will they do next–there will still be dozens of miles of city in every direction, filled with the remains of the Republican Guard. Even if they are disorganized and low on ammunition, those Guard soldiers will still fight for months of guerilla warfare. In the meantime, who will make sure the 4 million residents have running water and food?
Lets keep this thread on the practical issues–what will individual soldiers face as they enter the city?

First of all, no one makes sure the residents have running water and food. Second, I seriously doubt that 4 million people are going to stay in Baghdad if the US Army has rolled over the rest of the country and there is about to be heavy urban fighting in the area.

I seriously hope that there are enough refugee supplies and shelters should this come to pass.

I don’t think there will be too many tanks in the first wave, should urban fighting come to pass. Some, but not many. Baghdad is a pretty old city, with a lot of narrow streets and such, so most of the fighting will probably be done by infantry. Probably a lot of snipers working on both sides. Airstrikes would be difficult if the troops are in there, since there would be a high risk of blowing up your own people. Probably lots of rigged doorways and buildings and things to slow down the search and clear aspects of the US advance.

Not good times.

Here at the National Institute for the Advancement of Understatement, we wish to congratulate Neurotik for his nomination to our yearly Top Ten list.

:slight_smile:

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/newswires/2002_9_24.html

Retired Central Command Commander in Chief Gen. Joseph Hoar described it as “Saving Private Ryan-like fighting”. And to put it in context, he was argueing in front of congress to go slow about war. Hyperbole there sure, but I agree with **Neurotik
**.

Unless you ANIMAL MOTHER from Full Metal Jacket, then it would be the best of times.

Shouldn’t that be the annual Not at the Bottom of the List?

A lot of civilians will vamoose at the first sound of artillery fire. Good plan.
A lot of Iraqui troops will desert long before then.
Also a good plan.

But Saddam’s equivalent of the KGB will be doing everything it can to screw-up both of those plans. Civilians will be herded towards our forces like human shields, & deserters will be shot. Of course, the Secret Police won’t have it all their own way, & some of them, being pragmatic lads, may well loot a local bank or goldsmith’s shop & run for the hills as well.

Once we hit Baghdad, all bets are off! It’s total chaos then, baby, & only the best-trained troops will win.

I doubt the US will rush into any kind of full scale urban siege warfare. First, let the people get away or surrender. Second, get the army to surrender. Third, blast the diehards out of their bunkers with huge bombs and satchel charges, or whatever they use. The nice thing about having air supremacy is that there is no necessity to plunging into combat in a packed urban area.

I do not think that the US will strike at the Iraqi civilian infrastructure, excluding collateral damage. If I am wrong, I think that the DoD will have made a mistake. Don’t unduly burden the Iraqis if the whole point is to overthrow Saddam the Terrible.

I think the plans for war are making the assumption that once the invasion gets underway, Iraqis will rise up and overthrow the Ba’athist regime, and there will be no need for a siege of Baghdad… Bush (and Blair) will be hoping for a repeat of the fall of Kabul in 2001, and not the fall of Berlin in 1945.

I don’t know what the basis for expecting this to happen is though.

That is the big question, for sure. And one without an answer. There is no predicting how people will react, the impulse to resist the “foreign invader” is very powerful, but unpredictable. Witness the Ukranian reaction to German invasion and, conversely, German civilians volunteering for utterly hopeless battle against Russian/American invasion.

What I dread most is Al-Jazeera broadcasting pictures to the Muslim world of streets strewn with dead Iraqi women and children. On that day, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere on an American passport.

Wait, stop right there. Four million residents in Baghdad? That’s insane. Baghdad has about 560,500 persons living there. It’s only the third largest city in Iraq. Perhaps the other two that are larger should be more of our concern, which are Mawsil (1,739,800) and Basra (1,337,600).

Iraq itself only has about 25.5 million residents.

Don’t you think the Iraqis know that we have no interest in permanent governance of their nation? In other words, until we make a huge mistake, we will be viewed as liberators from Saddam.

I believe you are correct, unfortunately, that some Iraqis will be sacrificed in some kind of senseless forced-volunteer resistance.

I don’t think anyone wants to see anyone get killed, except Saddam. But, is there any price in life you would pay to rid a nation of a brutal tyrranical dictator?

As much as civilian casualties are horrible, if Saddam himself is responsible for using the civilians as shields, does that absolve the US of at least some of the responsibility?

Egads, I just remembered that some people want to be human shields for Saddam.

I think you’re underestimating the power of patriotism. Just because the Iraqi people may have certain issues with their government, that doesn’t mean they want a bunch of damn foreigners running around the country killing their boys. Considering what they probably have been told, they’ll most likely prefer the devil they know.

BTW, the Ukrainians only accepted the Germans because theydrove out the original conquerers of their country, the Russians.

Daoloth, in support of the 4 Million figure:

http://populations.com/Country.asp?ID=78&CityID=3401

You may disagree, but this is the number given here. They also put the total population of the country at ~23 Million, 75% of which live in urban centers. Another consideration: depends from which direction the attack on Baghdad comes, as to how many “urbanites” will be dealt with. There are smaller satellite cities that could provide obstacles to an advance; it all depends how fast the command wants to take the city (use of hard surface entry points in lieu of open plain, etc).

BTW - the talk about refugees is interesting. This is winter in Iraq, which is fairly hard around the Baghdad area. Where would the refugees go? How many would suffer and perish trying to find a safe haven? Obviously, it would be difficult to answer this question; it would, however, be a much greater problem than what occurred during Desert Storm, owing to the capital being under direct attack, and the necessary displacement of millions of people.

Just a thought…

Why would we have to enter Baghdad at all?

Encircle, and ensiege. Use the jets to pinpoint bomb anything spotted hostile. Or the GPS artillery rounds. Wait for refugees. Disarm, shift to camps. Wait more. We got time. Why waste lives?

Do they know that? Hell, I dont know that. We’re damn sure not going to have an immediate free election, you can bet your ass on that. Whatever government is in place will be an installed government, approved and vetted by You Know Who.

Of course, I don’t really know as many Iraqis as you, Beagle By the by, just how many Iraqis is that? From whence you derive your firm convictions as to what the Iraqis think and feel.

I need to go bed, but…

Regardless of the opinion often stated on the board that the Iraqis would most likely welcome us, there is every reason to believe that the populace would not be all that happy to see US troops in their collective living rooms. First, this is their home we are invading, and (as stated well by Alessan) “they’ll most likely prefer the devil they know.” The Baghdad populace, especially, was, before the Iran/Iraq war, quite young and vibrant; Baghdad was considered a university city, and had a strong professional class. The current citizens have been worn down by years of subsistence living; for many, their homes are the only things they have left. This does not mean that they will all fight to the death to defend their property, but I do feel that they will not flee out of the city unless the situation gets pretty dire.

As such, it will be difficult for the US forces to avoid civilian casualties: Baghdad is fairly densely populated, and the most important targets will be in the central and more heavily peopled parts of town. Even if we execute with a higher degree of accuracy than displayed in more recent actions, there will most likely be substantial casualties, as most people will refuse to leave their homes, in winter, for the unknown. Once the ground war starts, there could still be a great number of people in and around Baghdad; numbers of casualties could quickly rise, especially once the battle concentrates in the more congested areas of the city.

In addition, it is common knowledge that the Iraqi AD forces use rooftops throughout the city as defensive points; there are many decoys set up, and the real units rotate frequently. The more dangerous type of AD, as far as we are concerned, would be the AAA: we won’t be able to use the high level bombers out of concern for the citizenry, so we will most likely depend on raids of F-15E’s, F-117’s in night sorties, and other coalition (if one exists) ground attack aircraft that can get in close to put guided munitions on target. These aircraft, in order to be accurate, will be fairly low in altitude, and relatively close to their targets; your basic run of the mill ZSU-23 (aka Shilka) and ZSU-57 can cause a lot of damage in these circumstances - they pump large amounts of steel into the air quickly, and can create havoc at anything under about 4KM. These cannons are also much harder to take out with Wild Weasel missions, as they usually depend on optical sighting for primary acquisition, and can quickly switch targeting modes; this means that many of them will most likely survive any preparatory strikes before the ground attack fighters come in.

Since we can’t just flatten Baghdad due to civilian concerns, air power will have a much more limited role when it comes down to assaulting the city. Iraqi aerial assets are extremely limited, therefore giving the US forces aerial superiority from the start; however, it will be of limited use when the fighting gets to the city proper. There are several considerations that the US military will have to respect: 1) large concentrations of civilians will most likely be present, even at the urban stage of assault; 2) weak support for the war among the US populace, which may lead to desires on the part of the command to execute and seize as quickly as possible; 3) minimization of large-scale damage, as this war will most likely be highly publicized; 4) seizure of the command and control elements will be of utmost urgency, to avoid any unwanted missile launches on allied countries and forces [specifically Israel]; and 5) avoidance of a protracted struggle, for political and logistical reasons.

The ground phase will have to take all of the above, as well as other concerns, into account; as such, there will be heavy pressure on the command to strike certain areas of the city quickly and with extreme force. I would expect SF forces to hit areas like the presidential palaces shortly before the ground assault took place; air cav would also be effective in creating multiple points of attack (and therefore of concern) for the defenders, in an attempt to weaken their positions in any one area. Even with highly mobile forces distracting and softening the defenses, one of the most difficult issues to overcome for the US forces will be lack of intelligence: though we have a good idea of the Iraqi OOB, our goal will be to neutralize command and control within the city quickly and efficiently; they have been on the defensive and in a paranoid posture for quite a few years now, and it will be difficult to find and assault the command centers without some pretty decent intel. We didn’t do well on this score in Desert Storm; if don’t want this dragging on for many months, with a distasteful amount of civilian and US casualties, we will have to be much better at the intel game this time around.

The types of forces we could potentially face will run the gamut: conscripts, Republican Guard, Special Republican Guard, SSO troops, average civilians (who are allowed to possess weapons), and the bedu tribesmen. The bedu have threatened to take up arms against any invaders; they number about 10,000 (very rough estimate) and could conceivably be fairly well-armed with small arms, supplied by the government. You could expect decent rates of desertion among the conscripts and the Guard units; the SGR and SSO will not desert, and the SSO would be the last to surrender (if Desert Storm is any indication). Many SSO can be expected to pose as regular civilians, to add confusion and to infiltrate our lines (they know we will try to provide aid to the civilians, and will take advantage of that); the core officer cadre of the SSO and the SGR are usually trained outside of the country, or by advisors, and are the main troops to receive urban warfare training. Once we hit Baghdad, we can reasonably expect all of the above to be arrayed against us; propaganda will be full force from the beginning of the conflict, and the population will be expecting us to forcibly rip them from their homes to be forcibly exiled in camps in Israel or half a world away. They are also being told that their families will be separated, and that many will be put on trial by us and imprisoned. I would expect a large number of them to believe what they are told; they are in a closed society since the end of the war, and cannot afford (economically) to have much contact with many outside of their immediate neighbors. {As a quick aside, we live in an open country, and look how many of us take the government’s word at face value…} In such an environment, hostility to the US forces should be expected; the view of us as liberators may be romantic, but it is totally unrealistic. There are few that view us as such; more likely as meddlers and imperialists. The Iraqis that can really be said to support our views are mostly living in exile, outside of Iraq; they have little respect within the country itself, in any event.

Got to go, hope this is informative in some way.

Thanks

Greco

I understand that the Iraqis have been develpoing a unique system which offers near total protection from aerial observation. It’s called the “roof”.

There are even rumors of an even more advanced system, known as the “hole in the ground.”

Face it. A battle isn’t over until the infantry have covered every square foot of enemy held territory.

One quick note (if anything I say can ever be called that…): in case I didn’t stress it in the above post, no, we don’t have time. Things to consider:

  1. Need to find ballistic missiles, to avoid launches on Israel
  2. Popular opinion: it isn’t that strong, neither at home or abroad. Prolonged or protracted fighting would be very dangerous to the administration, and not well-supported by whatever allies we have.
  3. Capture of Saddam: if this is indeed a goal, and we plan to have someone’s head to put in place of the wily bin Laden, we would have to move quickly.
  4. Cost: a protracted seige would be costly to the populace. Assuming we could lure a majority of the civilians out of the city, we might be okay. But what if Iraqi forces refused to let them out, and holed up? Sieges are very unpredictable, and we have limited intel on the resources available; with a high number of civilians present, you can bet the military will not be sitting out in the burbs lobbing artillery rounds in willy-nilly. So it will be difficult to put the proper pressure on the defenders, keeping in mind the need for low civilian casualties.

Just some things you might want to think about before advocating a siege of Baghdad…

Greco

God, why can’t I just close the thread? Luce (hope you don’t mind the familiar address), I have to back you up there. Anyone queried any Iraqis on their thoughts? I have, and the general consensus is “It’s our mess, let us figure it out.” I mean, how many actual Iraqi defectors are there? Ever notice that the “exiled opposition leaders” don’t seem to be all that wholesome looking? Ever wonder why? Could it be that maybe they were just upset that they couldn’t get their hands in the pot, and hoped maybe they could interest some big, strong world power with stars in its eyes to help them, you know, take out that mean old dictator for them? I would be the first to admit the inherent evil of Saddam, but most of the “opposition leaders” ain’t exactly Little Bo Peep, either…

BTW - not being arrogant, as I think I have been called, but I do know lots of Iraqis, here and in the US. Many will tell you how bad it is there, some won’t; most all will tell you that, sure, it would be nice to be rid of Saddam, but I have only met one out of about 40 or so that recommends and supports an invasion. FWIW…

Sorry for the hijack…

Greco