What would a Green America be like?

Follow-up on this thread: What would a Libertarian America be like?

Suppose the Green Party somehow won a majority in Congress and all state legislatures, plus the presidency and all governorships – or, even without that much electoral success, somehow got into a position to get every single item on its agenda enacted into law.

What would America be like then? What would be the political, social, and economic effects of a consistently Green policy regime?

Clarification: There are two “Green Parties” in the U.S. From Politics1.com:

For purposes of this hypothetical, it’s the larger and more moderate Green Party that comes to power.

The party has “Ten Key Values”:

Grassroots Democracy

Social Justice

Ecological Wisdom

Non-violence

Decentralization

Community-based Economics

Feminism

Diversity

Responsibility

Future Focus
What, exactly, they mean by each of these, you can find out by clicking on each one, as they’re listed in the right-hand top corner of the party website’s welcome page.

For specific policy positions, see the 2004 party platform here.

The only way to win is to appeal to a whole lot of voters.
That means getting a lot of middle of the roaders and undecideds aboard.
Change is slower than any party platform.
If you check any party’s last-time platform at their next convention, you’l notice that lots of it was ignored, but will still reappear again this time around.
Platforms are sale flyers for stores. Promise a lot, but after you check out it and see the receipt looks just about the same as last time.

I know, I know. But this, like the other thread, is based on a hypothetical. If the Green Party somehow won all or nearly all the marbles and got everything or nearly everything its members want – what then?

Later on, I’ll start similar threads WRT to the Socialist Party, the America First Party, and the Constitution Party. (The Reform Party hardly even seems worth discussing in hypothetical terms, any more.)

BrainGlutton, I think you should find and read Ecotopia by Ernest Callenbach. It gives one view of what a Green Country would be like. In this story it covers all 10 points of the green party. I would almost suspect that Ecotopia was required reading for the founders of the Green Party.

You will also like the book, it has a Heinlein feel to it, if Heinlein was a Socialist of course.

I am a Green and I have voted Green party many times. I am not comfortable with all ten points. #4. NON-VIOLENCE is hard for a hawk to accept. I am surprised they do not specifically address UHS. If they got power and enacted everything in their agenda, I imagine the system would prove unworkable and they would have to make some large compromises. As long as they focused on point 3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM, I would be happy with it.

In theory a govermnet by Greens should be fair and equatable. It would not discriminate. I would probably lead to have more friends in the world. I do believe in the long run it would lead to a lower economic standard of living but perhaps a better overall standard of living. It would be very tough on the Uber-Rich. I suspect they would fight the Green party as hard as they would fight a socialist or communist party.

Jim

I think there’s an excellent chance the military would take over, as soon as the Greens start making serious efforts to disassemble all nukes and cancel all weapons programs, rationalizing that their oath to preserve the constitution compels them to resist steps that would endanger the constitution by leaving the nation exposed to attack by anyone with a sharp stick.

Incidentally, the major flaw in Ecotopia is the same one in communism - both suggest that a major political shift is just fine once the country has reached a self-sustaining plateau of infrastructure where all basic needs can be met and no further innovation is necessary. I’m kinda curious how the fictional Ecotopia (comprising of Washington, Oregon and northern California) would recover from the 1989 San Francisco earthquake, since the economic base of the laid-back Pacific Northwest doesn’t look like it has a few billion eco-bucks to spend on rebuilding.

Kodos: “Your superior civilization is no match for our puny weapons!”

I did mention that I did not think a government based on their 10 principles would actually work. Ecotopia is an interesting piece of Science Fiction, I enjoyed it. I also enjoyed Starship Troopers. I do not think either political system would work.

I do believe many of the basic tenets of the Green Party should be endorsed and implemented.

I fear we can not step down as a military superpower unless something else would step up. Maybe the EU & North America together could fund a flexible military to share the cost better. It would do little good for the green party to change America and for the Chinese to sweep in and take over the world.

The dismantling of mega corps sounds good in principle, but the reality is that they are real power in the world. The Greens would have to tread very carefully or a business & military alliance would Wipe them out.

Jim

I could actually see Starship Troopers long before Ecotopia, simply because mandatory military service is not uncommon around the world. I can easily see something along the lines of “All citizens must perform government service” morphing into “In order to get the vote, all citizens must perform government service, though this isn’t mandatory” (or, more easily “you don’t have to do your government service, but you won’t be able to register to vote until you do”).

I don’t see the return of Heinlein’s 50s culture anytime soon, mind you.

I’m not sure, seems like Sweden might not be to far from a Green Party Ideal. They are much further along the route to renewable energy resources than we are. They have a more balanced economy with less distance from high to low. It is usually a neutral country with a very small military and a high standard of living.

Of course they were probably able to develop in such a way due to the sacrifices of NATO footing the bill during the Cold War. They also have a very low population density and excellent natural resources, especially for Hydro & Wind power. So using them as an example has flaws.

Jim

Nitpick : I believe it’s “Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!”

I’ve read Ecotopia. And yes, Green ideology certainly seems to combine Socialist and Libertarian elements, so Socialist Heinlein is probably an apt characterization – but then he would probably also have to be Pacifist Heinlein and I just can’t see how that would be Heinlein any more. Annapolis man and all that, you know. Although he might dig Callenbach’s idea of ritualized battles, fought with spears, designed to work off the males’ aggressive impulses with few actual casualties.

:dubious: Do you really believe that, considering that the American military (unlike the militaries of some countries I could name) has never in all our history rebelled against the authority of civil goverment or sought to become an independent political force in its own right?

Ecotopia is a society where politics is multipartisan and everybody is vigorously engaged in it and TV programming is heavily weighted towards coverage of interactive political debate. I really can’t see it as being hostile to political innovation or experimentation – nor to the same in technology. Only that any technology actually implemented has to meet stringent standards of minimal environmental impact.

BTW, for another and arguably better literary picture of an America transformed by Green politics, see Pacific Edge, by Kim Stanley Robinson. Really the most persuasive and plausible utopia I have ever read, FWIW.

That’s exactly what Socialist Heinlein would have said.

Come to think of it, [url=]Heinlein was a socialist in his early years, kindasorta:

OTOH, in his later years Heinlein was very hostile to “back-to-nature freaks” who “can’t do arithmetic.”

The Simpsons Archive supports you. I was quoting from memory.

Elect a Green government (that is to say, elect the Greens as they are right now and not after the years of necessary compromise and wising-up they’d have to do to get elected plausibly, as their European counterparts have done) and I’m willing to bet that could change right quick, so I stand by my hypothetical assessment.

But the infrastructure of Ecotopia (i.e. buildings and roads and whatnot) was all conveniently inherited when, instead of staying and fighting for their property, a huge segment of the population simply left during and after the 1979 revolution. The author describes San Francisco as being fairly quiet and peaceful, but maintaining buildings and roads takes large-scale operations, and with corporations essentially banned and the main business structure consisting of “partnerships” with an effective maximum membership of around 300 (it’s been some time since I read the novel, so some details may be hazy), who exactly is going to keep the buildings upright and the roads paved, holding back the steady inevitable decay and not even counting massive natural disasters like the 1989 quake? The only way Ecotopia can “work” is if 90% of the population leaves and the remaining scavengers simply abandon buildings and roads as they crumble, gradually shrinking away from the cities entirely and setting up small agrarian communities which have no chance of maintaining any kind of effective military. Another cheat: long gun ownership was common and all the able-bodied Ecotopians were effectively members of the “militia” in case the Americans made a second attempt to retake the seceded territories. Of course, since their first had been such a conveniently inept botch, and they were choking in their own pollution too much to mount a second, maybe a high-tech military wasn’t necessary after all.

Ecotopia is an interesting blueprint for small scale social structure, and I could vaguely imagine a low-population-density state like Oregon, Washington, Vermont or Maine adopting some of its premises as policy, but a nation that tried would get bent over by the first AK47-toting visitor and, though long vegan and proud of abolishing factory farming long before, would quickly rediscover how to squeal like a pig.

Hell on earth.

I would guess that Heinlein’s reaction to the anti-corporation feel of the Green party platform would be negative. I am sure he would not favor a massive reduction of the military. I am sure he was in favor of nuclear power. I believe he would support alternate fuels to go with nuclear to shut down of dirty coal plants. I am aware that very early on he was a socialist, but that did not last long. I believe it changed especially when he hooked up with Virginia. He had become a rabid anti-communist by the fifties.

Weirddave: Nice contribution. :wink:

Jim {I will look for Pacific Edge, as I love the Mars series.}