It’s OK, I have the same effect on fundamental Christians also.
Your link was a joke admitted by the researchers, there was no OBE.
I wouldn’t break out the champagne yet, the brain is one of the things found not to cause consciousness. I believe the next few years will be fun, hope I live to see them.
OBEs and NDEs are far from spooky, they are sublime.
Near death experiences are not anything like religion, you can’t compare them on anything but Love. They do not require any belief, action, or thoughts from anyone. There is nothing to fear, they are liberating events.
I get it and I do recognize that it is a difficult issue. I think a benevolent god is helping. The path to love and truth is open to us if we are willing to make the effort. More than that I think our connection to god and each other draws us toward god and together, but we are able to choose when and if we follow that lead.
This believers as well. That being the case and because of free will, temporary illusion or not, people are also free to choose from among the entire spectrum available. That includes the most noble and the most horrendous.
Even though I’m not overly fond of the heavenly father analogy, it’s a concept we can relate to. My goal was to help my kids grow up to be responsible contributing adults who knew how to make adult choices. At some point they become my peers even though they remain my children. I had to let them make choices and bear the consequences even when it hurt. As adults I cannot stop them from being self
thanks
It’s a little more complex than that. I think in this complex web of cause and effect , choices and consequences, I think we are partners in creating events, even though we can’t see it from our perspective.
I’d say that each experience has an affect on others involved, not just the individual who passed. For those of us who believe the consciousness or soul lives on, the person who has passed has moved on to continue their growth somewhere else. I note that that is pure speculation. Still, those left must choose how to deal with our loss.
Thats true. People kill themselves with
alcohol and drugs all the time, or lead self destructive lives in various other ways.
I’d like to think they have another chance to choose differently. I’m content to wait my turn to find out and try to make the most of my time here.
I’m not immune to the doubt that can come with seeing man’s cruelty to his fellow man or what seems to be needless excessive suffering. Still, I don’t see any alternative to trying to make things a bit better in the small area where I have influence and responsibility. While I’m doing that I think it’s possible that the complex web of cause and effect contain those things that are hard to understand. Right now we can’t see all or fathom it’s complexity.
Can’t you think of any ideals that might be worth risking your physical well being for? Jesus asked us to value the eternal things more than temporary saying “21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
We admire people who achieve success unless they lie and cheat others to do it. We admire people who risk themselves to stand up for high ideals and help others. Isn’t there a point at which we realize that some things are more important than our physical wellbeing? Thats all I’m saying. Sometimes physical issues force us to focus on other valuable aspects of life. Thats not to say they are trivial. Only that our attitude sometimes turns what might be a negative into a positive. That kind of attitude then teaches others. I’d add that suffering also asks something of those able to help and their choices also enter the web.
You could explain how God is not like the neglectful parent in the example I gave. But I doubt if you will.
Is there any reason to believe that a benevolent god is helping? Like, do you have a brilliant solution to the problem of evil you haven’t mentioned yet? 'Cause if not, you’re talking about a connection to a god that doesn’t intervene on behalf of the people falling prey to the pitfalls he set before them in creating the world. And I don’t see how that connection could be expected to draw a person anywhere good.
Right, but how many beartraps did you leave scattered around in your kid’s playpen? If the number is zero, it’s a pretty poor analogy.
Partners with who? If it’s other people, I can see it from my perspective. (The notion that people are operating in a world with other independent people besides themselves is not exactly novel.) If it’s God that I’m supposed to be partners with, then I can’t see it, because he’s pretending to be someone who doesn’t do anything. He’s pretending this in the most effective way possible.
So…God deliberately destroys and discards other people’s lives just to prove a point to other people? Are you sure you’re not arguing the ‘trivialization of the suffering of others’ position?
That doesn’t help them much this time around, though. Or undo the damage they do to themselves and the terrible experiences they’ll remember from this time around. (Assuming there even is a second time around. Hmm, does their family have to endure the painful scenario over and over again until the drunk gets it right?)
There’s nothing wrong with improving your surroundings. Of course, the mess is very likely God’s responsibility, as it’s in his sandbox; unless he actually is unloving, unjust, and unfair (or non-existent), then the fact that he leaves you so much work to do is a pretty good indication that he doesn’t care as much about the situation as you do, I’d say.
Of course there are the vanishingly rare cases where sacrificing onesself is the right thing to do. Of course, this is such a tiny fraction of the cases where suffering occurs, I didn’t believe that you seriously thought this was some kind of justification or explanation for suffering. I mean, it’s like saying that it’s worth beating ten thousand children if it makes one child feel better; I couldn’t believe that’s what you meant. (Well, now I know better.)
You keep going on about this web of cause and effect and interrelation and so forth. Just so you know, I noticed that I was sharing the planet with other people some time ago; it really doesn’t seem so novel or interesting a revelation to me anymore. So, you don’t need to keep pointing it out.
The thought that this could be a possibility disturbs me. What if you go through life determined to look for examples to follow, then find out that you are merely a prop to serve as an example for someone else.
If it turns out you are, then this is for you.
You, too, can be one of God’s Redshirts.
It quacked like an OBE. Why do you say it wasn’t just like one, unless you are claiming, without evidence, that OBEs are actually out of the body experiences. This explains quite nicely a possible reason for the experience.
The psychic crowd has been expecting proof for over a century. You can live to be 1,000 and still not be happy.
Many are. Probably not ones that kill you, though.
When we raised our kids, we certainly allowed them to struggle, but there are limits. Anyhow, I grew up with a god who was happy to allow great suffering for the slightest sin.
Well, when we lose our physical form, we don’t suffer. Don’t do much of anything in fact. But given that we have them, I don’t think it is too much to ask of a loving god to minimize useless suffering. I just have a hard time conceiving that a drowning baby represents any good. With that philosophy, I don’t much see the point of living and not going to a better place.
I already covered this. Since we inherit so many of the characteristics of our “souls” it’s kind of hard to see what is floating around. Just another case of scientific study whacking religious beliefs.
I cam see this isn’t going anywhere with analogy’s like bear traps and beating 10 thousand children. Time to call it.
Well, for one thing, life without free will would be a better argument for the existence of a god. At least he’d be in control. Why would a loving god give free will to people who choose to use it to hurt other people? He has the capacity to take it away from those who abuse it, and chooses not to. The world would be better off without this god.
Except, there ain’t one.
Assuming physical death is it. If thats the assumption then there’s no need to discuss this at all.
I understand the point and the sentiment. The problem with the discussion is that we can’t go to an eternal perspective, and still argue from the mortal perspective at the same time. it doesn’t go anywhere and I should have known better.
What has become apparent to me in this last round is that while arguing that a benevolent god would and should do more we humans do only a small fraction of what we are able to do to relieve the suffering of our fellow man. Is that Irony?
So, while it felt a bit like spinning wheels I guess I learned or clarified something.
Thanks for your input and the manner in which it is offered.
Really pressed for time right now, so just the background, if you want more I’ll post it later.
The building block of the universe is a thousands times smaller than any particle discovered by science. I will call it a unit. This unit is self-aware, and very curious about everything. It’s attracting force is love, and since it is self-aware (conscious) it can use thought. The sum total of units is God, hence God is love. In the absence of love everything falls apart.
The whole of everything is consciousness, which uses thought to create form, it is like a hologram, each part contains the whole and the whole contains each part. The only thing that is real is consciousness. God, or the whole, constantly expands, creates, and looks for ways to define itself. We were created as “helpers” in this journey of discovery.
So our universe is Love creating itself over and over in a multitude of forms and frequencies and densities. Whatever can be thought of can be created.
However, we are like small children learning to express our thoughts and emotions in ways beneficent to ourselves and others so we can in the future co-create with God.
Sounds like a fairy tale? Maybe, but I had to use the words of our language to describe it. They fall short of the true splendor of creation and love.
Do you want to go on to the training process and earth, or forget it?
Raving lunacy. Love is just an emotion. Not a force. And if something is complex enough to be conscious, much less curious, it can’t possibly be fundamental. And there’s absolutely no evidence for any of it. It’s just more of your insane, empty assertions.
No. Fairy tales are generally more entertaining, and less winceworthy. What IS it with you and your fetish for the word “love” ?
I’ve asked this in another thread, but in case you didn’t see it: Do you make this stuff up on the fly, or is there a manual or book we can use as a reference?
People are constantly avoiding accepting responsibility for their own choices and actions. As long as they do this no learning will take place. It is only when some catalyst or event moves them strongly enough to want to ask “there must be a better way,” will they seek knowledge necessary to change their lives.
P1. The building block of the universe is the unit.
P2. Units have an attracting force that is love.
C1. Units are something other than love.
P3. God is the sum total of units.
C2. God is the sum total of something other than love.