What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like?

Great Debates
201

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I’ve asked this in another thread, but in case you didn’t see it: Do you make this stuff up on the fly, or is there a manual or book we can use as a reference?
[/QUOTE]

No, I am not creative enough to make it up, I learned it from contacts with spirit.

Now, there are “books” that contain this information. Notice I use the word “contain.”

“Seth Speaks, the Eternal Validity of the Soul”
“The Nature of Personal Reality”
“The Unknown Reality”
are books written by Jane Roberts and contain most of the information I have presented here. Actually they are channelled books from Seth.

I have read them all and more, they are beautifully written and explain much.
There is only one author I value more, and that is “Emmanuel’s Book II, The Choice for Love”, compiled by Pat Rodegast and Judith Stanton.

202

[QUOTE=lekatt]
No, I am not creative enough to make it up, I learned it from contacts with spirit.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, you made it up, but refuse to admit it.

203

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Really pressed for time right now, so just the background, if you want more I’ll post it later.

The building block of the universe is a thousands times smaller than any particle discovered by science. I will call it a unit. This unit is self-aware, and very curious about everything. It’s attracting force is love, and since it is self-aware (conscious) it can use thought. The sum total of units is God, hence God is love. In the absence of love everything falls apart.

The whole of everything is consciousness, which uses thought to create form, it is like a hologram, each part contains the whole and the whole contains each part. The only thing that is real is consciousness. God, or the whole, constantly expands, creates, and looks for ways to define itself. We were created as “helpers” in this journey of discovery.

So our universe is Love creating itself over and over in a multitude of forms and frequencies and densities. Whatever can be thought of can be created.

However, we are like small children learning to express our thoughts and emotions in ways beneficent to ourselves and others so we can in the future co-create with God.

Sounds like a fairy tale? Maybe, but I had to use the words of our language to describe it. They fall short of the true splendor of creation and love.

Do you want to go on to the training process and earth, or forget it?
[/QUOTE]

I see that my doubts were justified. This doesn’t answer how these loving units decided (I guess they can decide, since they are self-aware) to come together to form smallpox and kill helpless children who aren’t trained or educated or tested or benefited in any way from having to suffer a terrible death. Sorry, but your God still sounds like a grade-A asshole.

204

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Actually they are channelled books from Seth.
[/QUOTE]

This one sentence really says all we need to know. You are taking spiritual advice from a schizophrenic. Gotcha. That explains your posts.

205

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Thanks for pointing this out. The posts are coming so fast I missed it.

It didn’t seem to me that the OP or anyone else was arguing for those traditional beliefs but maybe I’m wrong. Thats why I reacted the way I did. They didn’t seem relevant to the OP nor did they apply to me or what I was saying.

Briefly, {I hope}
God and spiritual beliefs IMO are about the inner journey of growth and maturity. That includes taking personal responsibility for our own choices and our feelings and what we do about them.
I specifically don’t agree or approve of the vision of god as a separate being out there somewhere apart from us that approves or disapproves of our actions. I believe actions have consequences and it is those consequences that will eventually steer us toward better choices.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is within and thats how I see it. I believe we are connected in a real way although I don’t know the details. That connection has a lot to do with our consciousness, our spirit , or soul, whatever terminology suits you. I believe there is probably a higher consciousness that is sometimes referred to as god or the holy spirit or even mysterium tremendum. Terminology isn’t to important and it’s unfortunate that it separates us so often.
The essence of it all is love and truth and these things draw us to them despite our illusions and stubborn resistance. eventually the consequences of our actions will bring us back to the path which we share, but is still unique in some way for each of us.

Thats enough to start.

I think there is a complex web of cause and effect that is too much for us to grasp. We operate within our limited vision of it. So, I agree, sometimes there isn’t always someone to blame. Often there’s a shared responsibility, and as you said, sometimes we’re faced with two bad alternatives.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you; I appreciate the response.

I don’t see a whole lot I would disagree with; I think human beings are naturally spiritual, although I’m sure there are atheists who would disagree with that.

OTOH, like love, I think that spirituality is mostly chemical reaction. Many are insulted by that statement, thinking that by saying “it’s a chemical reaction” the feeling is somehow less real or cheapened. It’s still real. It’s experienced. I just don’t believe there’s any being at which it should be aimed.

I agree with your assertion that personal responsibility is something for which we should all strive, and not blame others for our own mistakes. I think the only two things on which you and I disagree is that I don’t think there is a force that helps us; I think we help ourselves, and I don’t see an interconnectedness of all things. At some point, it is entropy that takes over, not cohesion.

206

[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
This one sentence really says all we need to know. You are taking spiritual advice from a schizophrenic. Gotcha. That explains your posts.
[/QUOTE]

They are spiritual knowledge coming from a spiritual being.

When I was reading one of these books at my office, one of my employees expressed a concern to me that I was reading weird books that could in some way hurt me. So I asked her to read two pages and if she found something she didn’t like I would quit reading the book. It took a while to talk her into reading the pages, they were a description of God by Seth, but she finally agreed and went to her desk with the book. About 40 minutes later I passed by her desk to find her crying and became concern about how the reading affected her. I asked “what did you read.” She replied “I just read about God, and He is so beautiful.” She came to our support group the next night and became one of our regulars. She was a former Catholic.

If the time is not right, pass them by. But your opinion is only your opinion.

We haven’t got to the part about planet earth and its problems yet.

207

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We haven’t got to the part about planet earth and its problems yet.
[/QUOTE]

No, we haven’t. Which is part of the frustration of trying to debate with you–it is impossible to get you to give straight answers to questions. For example, how do you reconcile this:

with this:

warning; photo not for squeamish

This is a very, very serious question, and I have yet to hear a serious answer out of you.

208

[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
No, we haven’t. Which is part of the frustration of trying to debate with you–it is impossible to get you to give straight answers to questions. For example, how do you reconcile this:

with this:

warning; photo not for squeamish

This is a very, very serious question, and I have yet to hear a serious answer out of you.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you want anything but a quick answer, so here it is.

In the end, no one is harmed, you come into this world as a perfect spirit, and you leave the same way, what happens here, stays here.

209

Then dying must be like leaving Las Vegas. I need to increase my drinking and find a friendly hooker.

210

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t think you want anything but a quick answer, so here it is.

In the end, no one is harmed, you come into this world as a perfect spirit, and you leave the same way, what happens here, stays here.
[/QUOTE]

What I want is a straightforward answer. You have given one, but I find it implausible. That’s great that in your opinion the person’s soul survives all of this earthly suffering. But being made to suffer is a bad thing. Surely you must agree with this. Don’t you think a murderer who tortures his victims for days before killing them is doing something terrible, and that the victims have the right to be pitied? And so why must God allow even worse suffering than that, inflicted upon people who bear no responsibility, like the boy in the photo I linked to?

211

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Then dying must be like leaving Las Vegas. I need to increase my drinking and find a friendly hooker.
[/QUOTE]

That’s right–but remember, end-state alcoholism cannot harm you. Got it?

212

“So, Mr. Jehovah… you admit that because of your negligence, millions of people have experienced horrible tragedy, pain, suffering, disease, and loss?”

“Yep.”

“And you admit that while you had the power to step in and stop it at any time, you instead stood idly by and watched it happen? Or simply ignored it?”

“Yeah, that’s right.”

“And despite your willfully permitting all that monumental pain and suffering in a world you created, much of it on people innocent of any wrongdoing, you still consider yourself a just and loving God?”

“Well, sure. I mean, I make sure everybody dies eventually.”

“No further questions, your honor.”

213

[QUOTE=lekatt]
“The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is opened.” – Dalai Lama
[/quote]
“A parachute full of holes and not properly secured is at best useless, and at worst deadly.”–Czarcasm

214

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Assuming physical death is it. If thats the assumption then there’s no need to discuss this at all.

[/quote]

One problem is that whatever deity there is, if any, has not seen fit to give us any evidence that there is something beyond. (Unless you are in lekatt’s corner.

Does the person who designed the road to happiness really have to route it through the briar patch? Whether or not there is something beyond the gate, there is no reason for there to be unnecessary pain and suffering on this side of it. So I think we can argue both at the same time. I don’t think any deity who allowed the Black Plague to gain new recruits is one I want to meet in a dark alley, no matter how good the food is over there.

BTW, it struck me that both of you arguing for god don’t believe in a traditional one. Maybe a just traditional Judeo-Christian god is unsupportable?

215

[QUOTE=lekatt]

“The Unknown Reality”
are books written by Jane Roberts and contain most of the information I have presented here. Actually they are channelled books from Seth.

[/QUOTE]

Whoa. I think we have reached a record low on cites here on the Dope, friends.

When I get a chance I’ll point you to some data about this fraud.

216

[QUOTE=the PC apeman]
P3. God is the sum total of units.
[/QUOTE]

I think that an unloving, unjust, unfair God would pretty much be a unit.

217

[QUOTE=lekatt]
About 40 minutes later I passed by her desk to find her crying and became concern about how the reading affected her.
[/QUOTE]

I had the same reaction when I finished reading Ulysses by Tennyson. That doesn’t mean I believe it’s real.

218

[QUOTE=Maureen]
I had the same reaction when I finished reading Ulysses by Tennyson. That doesn’t mean I believe it’s real.
[/QUOTE]

Crying is significant?

A mighty onion is our Lord.

219

Could be worse. Could be a turnip.

220

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
“So, Mr. Jehovah… you admit that because of your negligence, millions of people have experienced horrible tragedy, pain, suffering, disease, and loss?”

“Yep.”

“And you admit that while you had the power to step in and stop it at any time, you instead stood idly by and watched it happen? Or simply ignored it?”

“Yeah, that’s right.”

“And despite your willfully permitting all that monumental pain and suffering in a world you created, much of it on people innocent of any wrongdoing, you still consider yourself a just and loving God?”

“Well, sure. I mean, I make sure everybody dies eventually.”

“No further questions, your honor.”
[/QUOTE]

Lord Under Investigation For Failure To Provide