I do not want to search the internet where I would have to do a good deal of research because I lack any knowledge of the subject and would have to learn enough to judge the good content from the nonsense. I know there are doctors and other healthcare professionals who can give a definitive answer.
If a healthy young adult neither over nor underweight ingested a (small?) amount of antifreeze what would the physiological effects be? Specifically, what would it do to their vital signs? In a hospital setting, could they test for it by drawing blood – or presumably stomach contents on a live patient? If it is able to be detected in a blood draw, would you have to test for it specifically or would it show up in a normal tox screen? (By which I assume they mean an opioid test.)
Depending upon the answer, would the effects of consuming antifreeze be more dramatic if it was done more than once, but weeks or months apart? Lastly, would consuming antifreeze provide any type of high at all? Is there any reason to do it other than self harm?
In the olden days there was permanent antifreeze, ethylene glycol, IIRC, that would probably kill you, but it gave no high, and temporary antifreeze. The latter was methyl alcohol and it would give you a high, but probably blind you or kill you.
Thank you for the reply, of course it leads to more questions.
Menthol alcohol, is essentially moonshine correct? That would have been discovered so it is not a cause. Ethylene glycol is still a suspect (I am guessing here), is there a way to dose it so accurately that it will appear dangerous but not be fatal? If so, what would it do to the standard vital signs (i.e.: temp, blood pressure, heart rate, etc.) Also, how long would the effects last? Hours, days? If tested for specifically would it be easy to detect? And might it be detected if not specifically tested for. (Dozens of blood tests on this particular patient over an eight month period.)
No, methyl alcohol or methanol is a completely different chemical from the ethanol found in moonshine or any other type of alcoholic beverage. Its use as automotive antifreeze has been obsolete for decades. Automotive antifreeze, in modern usage, is a mixture of either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol and a variety of other chemicals that inhibit corrosion and increase useful lifespan. Ethylene glycol based antifreeze is highly toxic to mammals, whereas propylene glycol based antifreeze is less so. Although the propylene glycol itself is not toxic, the other additives are. Consuming antifreeze of any kind will not cause any kind of euphoria or “high”. There is no recreational purpose to do it. Additionally, the symptoms of ethylene glycol poisoning are well known and the substance itself can be directly detected.
Additionally, what is the basis for your question as it is clearly not simple curiosity. It is always better to describe the full context when asking a question for which you plan to make some kind of larger conclusion. And as scudsucker indicates, the nature of your question is disturbing and is going to affect how people answer your question.
Basically, is your question “would someone try to drink ethylene glycol antifreeze if they are an alcoholic and trying to get drunk?” Yes, it’s possible but not at all unknown and it can be detected.
These days any ethylene glycol-based antifreeze sold in the U.S. should contain a bittering agent to warn accidental human or animal imbibers, or intended victims of homicidal poisoning.
Routine hospital tests that are abnormal in ethylene glycol poisoning are suggestive in the right clinical setting but require specific testing i.e. gas chromatography for confirmation. Thankfully, shows like Forensic Files have increased public and healthcare provider awareness of these cases, so it should be lots easier now to catch the dickheads who attempt murder via ethylene glycol poisoning.
While this is true for modern day moonshine or any liquor, it was not always so.
During the fermentation process, some methanol is produced along with a majority of ethanol. When large batches of the fermented product was distilled to make moonshine, Methanol being the lightest (vapor pressure wise) would concentrate in the first liquid (condensate) drawn from the still.
Moonshine makers throw away the first liquids coming out of their stills.
First, thanks to all for the answers. And to clarify this is all within the last year so ancient practices or substances are unlikely to play into the situation (but I suppose not impossible).
Second I knew this question would lead to these kinds of questions, but for the time being I am not going to be as forthcoming as some would like. This is a real life situation, and actually, I would like indications or evidence that the results I am viewing CANNOT be from ingesting antifreeze. On the other hand, I do not want to say what the situation is and inadvertently lead anyone to say “yes- A plus B could equal C”.
I am trying to reverse engineer a possible cause for a situation I do not want to disclose at this time. I would like to know if that is a possible cause, or a knee jerk reaction. I suspect this is an over application of Occam’s Razor – unusual condition exists, normal causes seem to be excluded, but unusual substance found. Therefore B must have caused A.
That is why I am asking about specific results. Some answers can lead to – “never mind, that isn’t it”. Other answers may lead to a fuller explanation and potentially an acceptance of very unwanted news.
Lastly, I can assure everyone I am not planning to murder anyone using antifreeze or not using antifreeze. However, if certain accusations turn out to completely unfounded – well then, certain people’s futures and licenses are going to be in a very tenuous state.
Kidney and liver function tests are also very good indicators for this. There is a specific antidote, but if that’s not available, intravenous ethanol is used because it pushes the poison off the cells’ receptors.
ETA: The antidote is fomepizole, or vodka given via IV or NG tube if you’re a veterinarian.
Perhaps the question needs to be asked differently. If someone highly suspected of (but not officially diagnosed with) Factitious Disorder, specifically Munchausen Syndrome did ingest antifreeze but survived – what would the results be? This information can only support or contradict accusations being made.
Would blood tests done to detect opioid use detect any form of antifreeze?
Test for opioids only detect opioids. No common tox screen looks for antifreeze ingestion. A tox screen is a panel of tests that looks for common drugs of abuse such as opioids, amphetamines etc. Ethanol, or regular drinking alcohol, can also be tested for.
If you think this person has ingested this recently, they should be taken to the hospital.
We can’t be more helpful than that as we don’t know;
What specific kind of antifreeze, there are many.
How much.
When.
Even with those answers, if you suspect the person of trying to harm themselves or to be ill, they need to go to the hospital.
Here is an interesting case study which shows how dangerous this is and how difficult it can be to determine. CA poison control
While changing the thermostat on the truck, a small amount fell on the snow. One of our ducks took a drink. It was dead in a nano-second. And the body was hard as a rock within a minute.
Not sure I found anything on Wiki and not sure which part you are calling a myth.
Are you saying that methanol production during fermentation is a myth ? Or the concentration of methanol in the overhead during first distillate collection ?
Thank you for this reply.
I believe I can make some conclusions based upon this information. For example you are saying even one dosing would result in organ damage or failure, correct? Someone who ingested antifreeze multiple times would be very likely dead, and would have obvious organ failure for certain? Therefore the cause of multiple hospitalizations cannot be antifreeze poisoning.
Also, when you say “…among other things” could you please tell me what some of those other things might be? Specifically, what would it do to the vitals of the subject? (And here I am hoping the response contradicts the actual readings. If you have not figured by now, I am hoping to disprove antifreeze as the cause.)