What would Bush have been without 9/11?

From London_Calling

I was reading in another thread and this comment kind of jumped out and me. For a long time I’ve thought about what kind of president GW would have been if 9/11 had never happened. I’m sure London_Calling will be shocked, but I actually agree with him on this. I think prior to 9/11, GW DIDN’T really have a coherent foreign policy IMO. My feeling is that, without 9/11 GW would have been mostly an obscure one term President (well, unless the economy really does come back hard for him), without much impact on the world stage…just a domestic policy guy bumping along. Maybe I’m wrong here though. What do you guys think he would have done differently?

Whats the consensus? This is a ‘what if’ type thread. What If 9/11 had of never happened. What would GW’s presidency have been like IYO? What would the world be like today? Obviously Afghanistan and Iraq would not have been invaded (well obviously to ME…maybe not to everyone), so how would it be?

-XT

Until this week, he has received knocks for his handling of the economy. Without any foreign policy to distract the population, I suspect that he would be rated very low. I do beleive he would have at least stepped up pressure on Iraq without 9/11.

Honestly, I think Al-Queda probably would’ve gotten more out of Bush in terms of what they wanted if they hadn’t been involved in 9/11. He would’ve left their primary base of operations (Afghanistan) alone, and he had Rumsfeld slashing the Department of Defense. He was committed to reducing US military presence overseas and in short was going about his general isolationist views that America needed a smaller military with less overseas presence, in places like europe and the Gulf.

Ironic then, that their attack has done a lot to reverse that trend for the foreseeable future. It had the reverse effect than intended. As a result of 9/11 GWB has committed the US to being a military presence in the mid-east for years, possibly decades.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

I believe that Saddam was in the crosshairs the moment GWB was elected & one way or another something was going to happen in Iraq. I am not sure if 9/11 made it easier for him or may have delayed his going after Saddam because of Afghanistan. I do not think he could have waited any longer with next year being any election year. He is awfully lucky the economy is bouncing back a bit. On the other hand how bad would the economy have become if 9/11 had not happened?

From esquimalt

I have never seen anything showing the GW would have done much of anything outside of this country prior to 9/11. Seems contrary to my take on him during the election, which was that he was pretty isolationist in his foreign policies…such as they were. Do you have any cites for that esquimalt, or is it just a gut feeling on your part? What would he have used as justification? How could he have even hoped to get the American people on board for such a thing?

I have no doubt that we would still be playing patty cake with SH, maybe toss a few cruise missiles his way, take out a SAM site, stuff like that. I have serious doubts we’d have done anything more than that. As for Afghanistan, it wasn’t even close to the national radar…we could have cared less about the place. If you think back to the mood of the country prior to 9/11, we were pretty much complacent IMO…fat, dumb and happy, waiting for the recovery so we could all get back to work. Least thats how I was.

What makes you think that the economy would have been worse if there was no 9/11?? Why would it have been worse? I thought 9/11 did a lot to bring ON the recession and to REALLY bring down the economy. No?

-XT

Prior to 9/11, Bush struck me as having the most forgettable presidency in my lifetime. Sad as it is to say, I was scratching my head for a few seconds wondering why there was talk about his father’s Secretary of Defense on 9/11 before I remembered Dick Cheney was the vice president. My feeling is that without the attacks, he would probably have wound up in the history books being a relatively obscure one term president best remembered for the 2000 election controversy.

Regarding PNAC’s desire for the US to throw its weight around on the world stage by deposing Hussein, it too would have disappeared into a dusty corner of history without the attacks. The US public would never have supported the invasion of Iraq without it. Congress would have laughed in Bush’s face if he brought it to a vote. It has been, IMO rightfully so, highly controversial even with the attacks.

IMHO he would have been a weak lame duck president. It was 9/11 that snapped him out of a state of inaction. I’m not a big fan of that scene in NY with the bull-horn, but that was when things turned around for him. 9/11 gave him the mandate he didn’t have after the election.

Well, on one hand, people would be alot more critical on him about the economy. But without 9/11, the economy would be in better shape right now - no airlines losing billions, more consumer confidance and travel, less military spending needed. Very difficult to predict.

I’ve said all along that 9/11 made W. There’s no way of knowing what he’d be without it, but he certainly would never have achieved the approval ratings he got in its wake.

He’s a stupid, selfish, dishonest man, and without the HUGE distraction of 9/11, I like to think this truth might have become more obvious.

I remember sitting there on the morning of 9/11 and thinking, “What blithering idiot out there in International Terroristland thought this was a good idea? We’ve got the most isolationist President since the turn of the previous century trying to pull back and tell the rest of the countries of the Earth to solve their own fucking problems, and they just did quite possibly the only thing that was going to draw America to get seriously involved in whatever scene they are a part of!?”

Yeah, I think he would have concentrated on reshaping the domestic judiciary, trying to destroy all social programs of the New Deal / Great Society type, making abortion illegal, and putting prayer back in the public schools. His foreign policy would have begun and ended with “Don’t tell the US what we can or cannot do. Take your environmental treaties and shove them”.

From AHunter3

I was thinking pretty much the same thing. “What IDIOT thought of THIS??? My god, do they realize what they’ve unleashed???” That was pretty much my first thought. My second one was…my god, what is Bush gona do??? My thoughts were he was pretty weak on foreign policy, and I really had no idea what he was going to do at all…I just kept thinking that if they catagorized the attacks as Weapons of Mass Destruction that the US policy is to respond in kind…and what a blood bath THAT would be.

Its pretty appearent that the genius’s that came up with this thing didn’t have much insight into America…they were basically clueless as to how we work here. It was just about the stupidest thing they could possibly do. Its ironic I think…AQ actually made Bush what he is today. From being an obscure president who would most likely have been know only for the controversy of the election, he’s now one of the most notorious world leaders…hell, most notorious PEOPLE on the planet for that matter. I doubt he would have gotten much air time on this board, depending on what he would have actually done during his presidency (I’m pretty convinced it wouldn’t have been much…I seriously doubt he would have made more than even a token effort to do things about, say, abortion). Now though there is almost no thread in GD that DOESN’T mention the man, either for good or bad. I’d say the irony meter is off the scale…

-XT

You’re operating here on the assumption that the people who wanted 9/11 to happen wanted the U.S. to withdraw from the rest of the world. That’s too simplistic an approach.

There’s an old saying about hard-core environmentalists that “they don’t want pollution to be reduced, they want it to be evil.” The Osama bin Ladens of the world derive considerable BENEFIT for American interventionism. They don’t want it to be reduced, necessarily. They want it to be evil. That’s what given bin Laden and his ilk a reason to go on.

There was a terrific article in the paper today about Hezbollah and how they’ve struggled for support since Israel pulled out of Lebanon; the very reason for their existence was gone, so they just started making crap up. Their support in some sectors is dwindling. While they may once have existed to get Israel out of Lebanon, like all such organizations they now exist to keep existing, so Israel’s pullout was bad for them, not good.

No offense, but I think you’re just completely wrong. This was arguably the SMARTEST thing they could do. Now the USA is embroiled in a pointless and bloody occupation in Iraq, serving as military dictators to 19 million helpless Arabic people. You could not dream up a better reason to motivate fundamentalist terrorist nutbars. As a result, the terrorists have new support and new funds, they’re flooding into Iraq, and there are more targets of opportunity than ever before. Why go all the way to America to kill Americans? Now George Bush has sent 200,000 Americans right to your doorstep so you can kill them without all the bother of a transatlantic flight!

George Bush was a Godsend to the Islamicist terrorist. A warmongering U.S. president gives the terrorist a reason to exist, all kinds of public justification and public support, and keeps the war humming along.

Perfectly natural, glad to see you’re getting the hang of things :wink:

On the later general hijack point:

The initial US response to 9/11 was wholly predictable – what the hell else could a president have done other than go after ObL and a-Q in Afghanistan. Perfectly sensible and no one has a problem with that.

After that though, it gets interesting. As I’ve posted before, if one looks at interviews with ObL prior to 9/11 he had a clear agenda:

(1) – US out of Saudi
(2) - End the suffering of the Iraqi people (ObL said Saddam was a “bad Muslim")
(3) - A Palestinian State
(4) - Less US interference in the Muslim world (economic – esp, debt repayment, cultural, etc)

Now, there’s nothing on the shopping list Bush hasn’t worked at, albeit with differing success since 9/11. Remember, this is the guy who told Israel and the Palestinians to sort their own problems out (when he came into office); then all of a sudden he had a “roadmap to peace”. Then there was the post-conflict announcement of US forces leaving Saudi (no idea how that’s going, though) . . . etc, etc.

You interpret it as you will, but the spin coming out the White House about waging this war against terrorism looks and sounds like the thing the US people want, but under that headline, there’s a less acceptable (to the public) agenda quietly moving along. IMHO.

Al Qaeda has done the precise action at the precise time to increase American world power and opinion as much as possible. If they could have predicted this course, I’m sure this is the course that they would have chosen. Successful terrorist attack, inevitable short-lived world sympathy followed by long-term terror of the American rulers and public. This leads to retaliative strikes at the easiest targets, who are only tangentially related to al Qaeda. The end result is decreasing world opinion of America with al Qaeda only nominally affected. They have had no issues, it would seem, it carrying out terrorist strikes outside of the US, inflicting US casualties in Saudi and Iraq, and perhaps are still in waiting for attacks in the US.

But to the OP. I think you have to transport yourself back to August 2001 in order to begin to predict this. A time when our biggest news stories were shark attacks on the eastern seabord and Gary Condit, another weasely Democrat in inappropriate relations with a Jew. I’ll admit to bias, but there were only a handful of things that had pissed me off from the Bush camp before 9/11. The biggest was his moralistic refusal to negotiate on repatriation in the Koreas. Clinton had worked on this and had gotten all sides to sit down. He basically bribed North Korea into weapons inspection, and had pretty much managed to contain them. Bush came along, with Rumsfeld and all of his talk about “rogue states” and National Missile Defense, and holding NK up as an example, stopped negotiations. Our relationship, never quite lovely to begin with, quickly soured.

Maybe this is what Bush wanted. His pet NMD project depended on rogue states with ICBMs. China and North Korea were the only two close, and China’s relationship with the US had been steadily getting better, apart from that spy plane incident. So North Korea it was. I was pissed because it seemed like we were intentionally souring the well so we could build a missile shield which had been miles away from operational on all tests.

Continuing along this course, I see North Korea being the biggest deal for Bush. I see the situation worsening because IMHO 9/11 just let us ignore North Korea, thereby not actively worsening the situation. Without 9/11, there would have been more focus on them, and therefore more crises.

Second, I think it is impossible to tell what would have happened to the economy without 9/11. Bush had passed a huge tax cut, but I have heard differing opinions as to whether the tax cut has had anything to do with the recent bounce in indicators. I have heard a number of people attribute it to things like the tremendous amount of US government expenditure put into Homeland Security and Iraq, and thus predicting that the bounce is unsustainable. Without 9/11, Bush couldn’t have spent so much. This means that while he would have certainly had a deficit, he wouldn’t have had record setting deficits.

Lastly, I see a lot more focus on other issues if 9/11 hadn’t happened – health care reform, environmental policy. These things we have ignored because we have the two big issues (economy and war) to worry about. So Bush would have been forced to address this. His environmental record, according to most, has been a bit spotty, and he to the best of my knowledge has never firmly addressed the whole health care picture beyond prescription drugs for Medicare. It would have been interesting to see him tackle those problems.

It might be worthwhile to review the threads right here from that timeframe, if many of them were still available. Going from memory, on foreign policy he’d have the same screw-'em-all approach that killed the Kyoto treaty and induced North Korea to restart its nuke program, leavened partially by some China-bashing.

Yep, China. Remember the P-3 collision and landing, and all the knee-jerkers posting about the threat the Chinese military posed to the rest of the world? Remember writing all that crap, Sam & Co.? What happened? Right, the Chinese were the chosen bogeymen then, chosen by an administration with a Cold War mentality that requires a defined enemy to function, and was actively searching for one. The main difference 9/11 made was to present a real, credible enemy that was vastly more enabling to the things they had already wanted to achieve. Without 9/11, we wouldn’t have the destructive Patriot Act, or a ready-made argument for all the financial giveaways he’s engaged in, or so frightened and obsequious a news media to help people pretend it’s all right. There might even be some real investigations and real indignation.

On domestic policy, the big issue was and would still be the economy, the tax breaks for the rich, the aforementioned range of giveaways to, shall we say, organizations that do not have the public interest at the top of their priority lists. The economy and job situation would be in about the same shape at this time, I would think. I do not see any reason to believe he’d be pushing for prescription plans or Social Security stabilization or any other domestic initiative, but if he had been faced with a Democratic Congress in the absence of a 9/11-scared electorate he might have been forced to deal with it, and would certainly try to take credit.

Bottom line to future historians: Bungler, intellectually disgengaged and manipulated, ethically corrupt (on the broad scale, at least), still out on his ear after a single term, either way.

Bush without 9-11 would have concentrated on trade wars and pushing american bulk in commerce negotiations. Some of the first stuff he did were steel tariffs.

As for plain foreign policy I think Mexico was a priority for him… and Mexico would have fared much better without 9-11.

For me, the question is "How much pull would the PNAC have had on GWB, to paraphase the Wolfowitz et al themselves:

We know they were behind Bush anyway, and in his cabinet. We know Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld are signatories. Jeb’s a signatory and (possibly) “helped” him get elected. We know their feelings towards Iraq well before Bush was elected.

I suspect he’d still be “the guy who invaded Iraq”.

Agreed. 9/11 just made it easier to sell the Damn Fool War™ to the populace.

from jjimm

Disagree. I see no way in hell GW and his merry men could have sold this to either the American people OR to Congress and not be laughed all the way back to the WH. Toss a few cruise missiles at Iraq? Ok, I’ll buy that. Send in a few planes to bomb perhaps? Not outside the realm of possibility. But a full blown invasion?? Come on guys…you are giving GW WAY too much credit for what he could or could not do.

Without 9/11 I don’t see any chance at all for all this mess to have occured.

-XT

They sold this Iraqi war, didn’t they?

Just replace “Saddam Hussein supports al Qaeda” (which is a lie) with “Saddam Hussein is an evil oppressive dictator,” propagate some bullshit like “Saddam kills people with industrial-strength plastic shredders,” make dark hints about UN non-compliance and secret caches of WMDs, and viola! It wouldn’t be as easy of a sell, but it could be done.

I wouldn’t give all the credit to Bush – much of the real work would be done by Karl Rove and the conservative media. It wouldn’t be any effort for Ann Coulter to spread bullstuff like, “Why is the liberal media covering up the horrors of Saddam’s evil regime?”