…many years ago, I saw a TV show with Bill Moyers. He was interviewing some of the monks at amonastery outside Worcester, MA. He spoke to one monk who appeared to be in middle age. This man was highly educated, and had spent most of his life as a monk, following the rules of his order, and most of his time was spent in prayer. I was surprised that this monk told Moyers that he had had no revelations that God existed! So even for the very religious of us, faith is a struggle!
I can’t find the link, but a while back I posted a thread I think titled “God Forbid?”, about was there anything that wouldn’t be allowed to happen by God, and which if it did happen would therefore cast extreme doubt on his existence? As examples I suggested the extinction of the last Jew, or mind control perfected to the point where believers could be involuntarily converted away from Christianity.
Urban, I’m not 100% sure I grasp your meaning… are you arguing about logical proofs that YHWH exists? Or are you discussing some other thing entirely? If the former, there are a few things I would disagree fairly strongly with, but I want to make sure I know what you’re talking about first.
DNA will be quite sufficient, thanks.
That’s pretty clever. If I were desperate to convince you of my beliefs, I might try it. Oh, except for the fact that God isn’t a clown who does parlor tricks on demand. But to be honest, it’s really difficult for me to care whether you give any credence at all to what I believe about God. I know what I know, and have no need to prove myself to you.
Oh, ok, here you go. :rolleyes:
“The existence of some god is not something that can be disproven”
It can either be disproven or proven as:
irrelevant to think or act upon such an idea or conception during the duration of ones life; without first confronting suicide as a more logical act or negating the integrity of the process one espouses. It is fundamentally a false belief to be held on earth and/or the universe at large – outside of it; I have no clue, because, clearly it is by nature incomprehensible.
-Justhink
Ah yes, the standard response: God does not need to demonstrate his existence. Fine, except that God did exactly that throughout the Bible. Remember, Moses got in trouble for hitting the rock with his staff to bring forth water, since someone might imagine that it was the blow, not God, that did it. And what were all those parlor tricks that Jesus did anyhow?
The topic of this thread was what would it take for a theist to stop believing. So far the answer has been nothing - you all seem to have walled yourself off from any sort of rationality on this subject. I think that this is a shame, since a mind is a terrible thing to waste. 
Those who did reply said that they have a personal relationship with God. Should I believe this? Clearly not, since you at least seem a mite defensive when asked for evidence. Why believe you more than my Hindu or Moslem friends?
Fine. Given this, I trust you will not try to convince anyone that they should believe in your God, and you will not try to influence public policy because that is what God wants.
Voyager, what evidence do you want? Since your asking about my personal relationship with God, all evidence must, by definition, be anecdotal. My particular collection of anecdotes is strong enough to convince me, but I’ve been hanging around this board long enough to realize it probably won’t convince most of the non-Christians around here.
Regarding rationality, my faith provides me with things logic cannot. Now, I earn my living programming computers, so I’m not about to give up logic – it puts food on my table. On the other hand, faith gives me hope and comfort when those two are in short supply. Having tried to live without hope and comfort, I’d rather do without chocolate, and from me that’s saying something! 
Again, there are some people around here I may never be able to convice of this, but one does not preclude the other.
Finally, regarding attempts to “influence public policy because that is what God wants,” I’ve never thought of my habit of voting explicitly in those terms. I vote for candidates and policies based on what I think is best and what I believe (and to annoy both Republican and Democratic parties, but that’s just me). If I were to try to influence public policy to what I think God wants, I’d be doing so in favour of more acceptance of homosexuals, more liberty, more support for the poor, and less support for corporations. There are Christians who would disagree with those policies, especially the first one.
Getting back to the first point, tell me what evidence would convince you of my personal relationship with God, and I’ll try to provide it.
CJ
Quite obviously, this is untrue. To be sure, some theists have said “nothing,” and some have probably closed their minds to rationality on this subject. Others seem unable to give a specific example of what it would take to make them stop believing but do not show themselves to be irrational on the subject. And we’ve also heard from former theists who are now atheist or agnostic, so plainly, there is something that could cause some theists to stop believing. What that something is presumably depends on the theist, but the blanket statement that nothing would make a theist stop believing and that theists aren’t rational on this subject is contradicted by evidence seen here in this thread.
It occurs to me that “nothing” actually is sort of a specific example of a something that would shatter belief, for sombunall theists.
Notice how often all discussions of this nature quickly turn to frustrated, nigh-wordless hand-waving along the lines of, “I have a living relationship with God/Christ. I feel it every day, it’s an experience that’s always there in my life no matter what’s going on.” Around the core of an experience, people wrap protective layers of narratives and dogmas, whether literalist shells with bitchin’ flame decals and off-putting poison spikes, or more flexible ad-hoc allegorical and metaphorical clothing. Theologies are dead coverings–perhaps necessary, perhaps not. I think most theists–aside from insistence on how necessary and part and parcel the theology is–would agree that the living heart is the experience itself.
And that’s something that outweighs all other somethings. So, they have to answer the question of what would make their faith go away as “nothing”.
But the null set is a something, too, just of a different kind. What if tonight, John Theist goes to bed, and tomorrow when he wakes up, that living experience of God is simply…gone? Gone throughout that day, and the next, and the next week, month, year, decade. The words no longer invoke it, hours of prayer/meditation no longer touch it or even give a glimpse of it. In its place is nothing.
“Never happen,” would be the defense. “Allowable only as pure hypothetical non-real alternate world.” But I’d hazard that that’s the core of every loss of faith that ever was.
CJHoworth said, "my faith provides me with things logic cannot. Now, I earn my living programming computers, so I’m not about to give up logic – it puts food on my table. ON THE OTHER HAND, FAITH GIVES ME HOPE AND COMFORT (caps mine) when those two are in short supply. Having tried to live without hope and comfort, I’d rather do without chocolate, and from me that’s saying something!
CJ, IF (and I stress the “if”) it was proven to your satisfaction that there was no god, do you think you could find hope and comfort through earthly sources? If not, how would you fill the void in your life?
Very thought provoking, Drastic. Just a bit too simplistic, IMHO.
I actually didn’t feel a void - I lost my faith when I was twelve after reading The Deathbird, a short story by Harlan Ellison. I was actually a catholic altar boy at the time and found it disturbing that I was helping with Mass and reconsidering my position on the whole God thing.
So, if you had said, “But I’d hazard that Jewish short story writers are the core of every loss of faith that ever was,” I’d be right with you.
To be serious, I just don’t think it’s as cut and dried as you make it out to be. I think quite a few theists use the dogma, “It was a very tangible, but personal experience,” and others just simply believe because they always have. Of course, I’d imagine that there are scads of cases that fall somewhere in between. As for atheists, we’ve all heard of the, “Closely examined the evidence and studied the bible,” crowd ad-nauseum, but I’m fairly sure there are quite a few of them out there who just didn’t feel like going to church one day, and then developed excuses afterwards.
Human thought processes are just too varied to pigeonhole all athiests as arriving at their current state of mind in similair fashions as all other athiests. That smacks a bit too closely to community, if you ask me. And the day I see an agnostic/athiest church/cathedral is that day I become born again simply to be contrarian.
I think I’ve just found what I’d like to be my epitaph. I could definitely live with (or rather, not, but you know what I mean) that carved into my urn.
I still think the “just didn’t feel like going to church anymore” thing is pretty much what I’m talking about–I’m not talking about existential voids or whatnot. Simply a certain experience that’s not there anymore, for whatever reasons consciousness moves to.
I’m going to respond out of order.
What evidence would I require to convince me that you truly believe you have a personal relationship with God? You have already provided it. That is a purely internal thing, and I have no reason to doubt your affirmation about this.
What evidence would it take to believe you really had such a relationship? Evidence for the existence of the God you’re talking to, for one. Something beyond the personal statements of those with personal relationships with other gods. I’ve already given one example.
I read a lot of books about UFOs in my misspent youth. George Adamski, who truly wanted people to believe him, told about how his saucer contacts described the surface of Venus. If it turned out that his description was on the money, we would have to consider that perhaps he had met some aliens. Of course it turned out to be way wrong, and we can conclude that he was either a fraud or a crank.
You seem to realize that the only evidence you have is anecdotal - which demonstrates to me that you are honest. Honest, but unconvincing. I have no more reason to believe someone talks to god than I have to believe that they talk to aliens or channel Cleopatra. What would make you believe Shirley McClaine?
How come the people I agree with reply? Alas, some people use the Bible as a weapon against those they wish to discriminate against. I’d contend that the innate goodness of some people make them interpret the Bible as a force for justice. That’s more important than whether or not God exists in my book.
I meant those responding, not all theists. After all, I used to be one.
Actually acknowledging that it is impossible to prove that no god exists, I would still like to hear from literalists what it would take to prove to them that the Bible is not inerrant. Plenty of people believe that while still believing in God.
Alas, the latter part of this thread seems to be populated excluslively by nonliteral theists. Pity.
To get into rationality or irrationality would require defining it, which seems outside the scope of this thread.
EchoKitty
Whether I could or not is somewhat irrelevant. For the sake of survival, I’d do everything I could to alternate sources of hope and comfort. At a guess, one of those sources would probably be the looking at actions of those I define as the better of my fellow human beings while paying less attention to the actions of those I consider the worse. On the other hand, for me right now, looking for alternate sources is a bit like looking for a different apartment. I have one I’m more than happy with right now, and changing is a hassle, so why inflict that on myself?
Quite frankly, right now, faith is being a big help to me in getting through some rough times. I respect your ability to get through rough times without faith, and maybe some day I’ll ask you how you do it. On the other hand, that ability like drawing. I have friends who can make 3 strokes with a pen and have a rose. I make 3 strokes with a pen, and I have a squiggle at best. It may be something you can do which I can’t without a lot of training and effort. Logic is telling me there are exactly 19 want ads in both local Sunday papers combined for my field. Faith is telling me I’ll find a new job, anyway. Faith sounds better right now. Both tell me to keep sending out resumes, calling headhunters, etc.
Voyager, I’m afraid I’m going to be of no help to you whatsoever. I wish I could, but God keeps vetoing the 6 foot high neon sign idea. Maybe if I nag him a bit more? On the other hand, the massive miracles in the Old Testament didn’t always work that well. After all, there wasn’t that much of a timelag between the parting of the Red Sea and the Golden Calf. Oh well. Can we agree on mutual respect anyway?
CJ
Ah. Well, I suspect you’ll find it difficult, if not impossible, to find a literalist who acknowledges that it could be proven that the Bible is not inerrant. I also suspect you’ll find it difficult to find literalists at all here at the SDMB because that sort of thing tends to generate a lot of flack from the various Dopers.
I guess I’m what might be called a “soft theist.”
But there is no evidence imaginable that would convince me otherwise.
For me God is the reality that I believe exists independent of perception.
I believe in the power of science but I believe that science can never understand it all. There will always be an unknown and my God resides there.
I believe that there are some things that are right and wrong, whether anyone believes them or not. That even if the only people left alive believed that Hitler’s actions were morally just, that they’d still be evil. My God resides in there as well.
I don’t pretend to understand God. God is to me as my mind is to a single neuron. And I don’t know if God gives a damn. I have no personal experiences with God. I do not feel God in my life. (And I find others attributing self-percieved spiritual experiences as contact with God to be of little evidenciary value.)
But, to me, it logically follows that if I believe in the absolutes beyond perception, if I believe in Right and Wrong (rather than right and wrong), then I must believe in God. And I believe those things.
But I cannot prove that which I believe, nor could any evidence falsify it.
I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating: I fear that there is no God and I pray that there is.
I’ll put my personal theism another way, with a Hebrew testament myth:
After the Golden Calf incident, Moses has a one on one talk with God. He wants to behold God … God responds, in effect, that Man cannot see/understand God directly, “you cannot see My face, for man may not see Me and live.” Instead God sheilds Moses from “His face” allows Moses to see His back, to see that which his spirit leaves behind. Such is all that even Moses could comprehend.
We never have direct evidence, face-to-face, with God. Such is beyond the best of us. At least in this life. But by studying that which God has left in his wake, the world, the universe, by trying to do our best to more closely appreciate its objective reality, we get closer to knowing God.
As to those who justify their political agendas with their religions, well, I’ll quote from another great myth - “It’s a Wonderful Life.” - “God uses the good ones, and the bad ones use God.”
Well said. I like that, atheist though I am. I even pretty much agree with that first post, since you don’t say that God is necessarily a conscious being. (Of course you might believe that, but you didn’t say so in that post.) Anyway, well said.