What would convince Believers that they've been wrong all along?

Great Debates
101

I posed the question, that was indeed what I meant. Some literalists (in talk.origins, at least) strongly believe that you can’t be a real Christian and believe in evolution.

The existence of some god is not something that can be disproven - but very specific claims about the God from the literal Bible have been disproven (to a reasonably high degree of confidence, at least.) Thus, I am a weak atheist in general, but a strong atheist w.r.t. to the god of the literal Bible. It sounds like you may be the latter also.

102

I’ve never understood this either. If so, why did Jesus do miracles, and why did God do miracles during the Exodus? God seems to appear only, like urban legends, to a friend of a friend.

This is not a trivial thing. I understand that a reason for early Christian anti-Semitism was that the Jews in Israel at the time unaccountably did not notice the risen Christ, the earthquakes, or the saints coming out of their tombs. In fact they (my ancestors) acted like absolutely nothing happened. But since something obviously did, it must have been the devil, eh?

103

I haven’t read through the whole thread, but my personal opinion is that I know that when a human is good, making good, she has nothing to fear, whatever happens later.
If something happens.
That, I would say is logical.

I can not understand that people, in different religions, say:
“Our Religion is the only one. Those that does not believe like we do, are doomed.”
It can’t be that life, (or literally after-life), is a big guessing game, which card (religion) to choose. And we do not even possess every card.

There is always millions of people that have never heard of Your/Our religion, what ever that is, and could thus not choose it.
If a person has been helping people his whole life and never harmed anyone…, done what his culture think is the rightful things to do…
Then one day he dies, and do You really think that there is a voice saying: “You should go downstairs!”

That is why I never believe in those God/religions of human creation, because these Gods seems to be very egoistic.
(If You do not believe in (worship) me, go to Hell-type).

And that is for me proof enough, about that the human created God.
These people with some beliefs and need to go to a certain house, to do some certain rituals? (Yes, every church or whatever The House of God is called, has rituals, just imagine people with a skirt made of reeds, doing those rituals, and You get the right picture).

When we vote, and some candidate begins to speak about that “we need to help the starving people, on the other side of the globe, that we need to push our money there…”
Well, in a Christian country he will be politically dead, and the more there is believers, the faster.
I do not know about the other countries, with different beliefs, but the Northern Hemisphere, we the Beautiful Whities are acting like this.
So much about what we have understood of the whole thing.

And these guys (that has actually voted against helping) could go to heaven, and the guys that have never heard of “The Right God”, but been helping their communities all their lives, should go to hell?
Because a book, this book or that book, says so?

If I had a God, I believe that I could talk with him in my toilet and there would never be any need for rituals and to build houses for Him.

If I look at Christianity, I can understand the main thought of the New Testament.
But the fact, among about thousand others, that in Christian churches there is always gold, in clothes, in the interior and so on, is just showing a historical fact, that “the church” has been “dazzeling” the poor people and filled it with amaze and wonder…, in order to “get their souls”, to be a part of the power-structure and sometimes in history being the power-structure.

All this is enough of proof to me that the God does not exist there, if at all.
If we mean that God exists when we get a higher moral, by the years passing by, then he does exist. That God lives inside us.
Unfortunately, that that God promise us nothing in the future and he does not need to, because the moral is not a tool of “how to control us”, as the man-made God is.

My “God” is pore in nature, when I am poor in nature. When I do good deeds, He does good deeds.
So the moral/conscience is a “good God” or a “satan” that dies when I die. And after that there is nothing, or if there is, there is only what I have chosen; the good or the bad.

If my thought are good or bad when I’m dying…
If that fraction of second feels like an eternity, so be it, but it has nothing to do with the “Church (or whatever) of Power” = the God interpreted/invented by man, for its own purposes.
And there will absolutely not be a guy asking questions, or some choir singing, unless I imagine so. (Stress on the word “imagine”).
If God is imagined, is he still a God?

So the “work in this life, do not complain”, (while we are using the power here on the earth), “and You will get everything in next life…”, is just a “whack” in order to control people.

I would say that logically thinking there can not be that kind of God that the priests (or whatever titles they use) have invented for us.
I think the OP is about God even if it does not say so.

So how to define God?

104

what makes you think god made you a believer? he didnt make me a believer, why not? sounds like you make yourself a believer, as you say stubborn as a mule;)

and how do you know there were no aliens in jerusulem 2000 years ago, i really doubt if you were there.

105

Sorry to check in to a thread I suggested so late, but I’ve been busy for the past couple of days. This time Polycarp has said things quite eloquently for me, but I can’t resist adding my two cents.

With regard to the original post, as I mentioned earlier, it’s very hard for me to conceive of circumstances which would lead me to give up my faith. Arrogant or cruel Christians? I’d be willing to bet I’ve met and been condemned by as many as just about any non-Christian in this thread. What makes it worse is I can’t disown them. Tragedy? I won’t try to top others here, but I have experienced my share. Appeal to logic? If being a Christian is considered synonymous with being ignorant (note the “if”, folks), then I plead willful ignorance. My faith withstands my tests of logic as applied to theology (a potentially biased and narrow subset, I admit).

Look, God in the worldly form of the Episcopal Church has been there for me throughout my life in a way that no other entity has been. When I was a kid growing up in a somewhat emotionally abusive family, and an outright abusive school situation, the church was the one place I could go and not be abused. When I moved to Hawai’i for a job and didn’t know a soul, the people at St. Andrew’s became a second family to me. On about the basest and most practical level you can get, when I hit a major financial crisis after losing a job in Hawai’i, they gave me money to pay my rent. Now, this message board is wonderful for emotional and moral support, and I’m aware of Dopers coming through for each other in rough times, so I realize you could have a lot of fun with SDMB as a religion, but that’s only part of it.

As I mentioned in a different thread, two weeks ago I suddenly and unexpectedly got laid off. I’m looking for work, but I know the realities of the tech economy in America at the moment. I could blame God for this, complaining that I was happy in my job, that I was doing good work, that I was doing Good Works (I started a food drive among other things). That’s just going to make me more depressed and anxious. Instead, I am quite deliberately choosing to trust that God knows what he wants me to do next while putting together a good resume (including text version), checking the want ads, networking, etc. Am I using religion as a crutch? You betcha! Right now, my knees are a little week, and I could use the support.

People have asked why some people get signs and they don’t. I can’t answer that. I’ve seen miracles, including one major one, but I know that at least half of that miracle can be explained by logic, and the other half, as a wild-ass guess, by psychological conditioning. You can take away my critical thinking card and my Mensa membership if you like (though not for another week, please), but I choose to believe in the events that happened as a miracle. I’ve asked for comfort the past two weeks, when I’ve wondered how I’m going to get the money to pay the bills, and I have received it. I am convinced there is something wondrous and special outside my ken, and I derive too much benefit from that belief to surrender it without extremely powerful evidence to the contrary or a major (and presumably traumatic) change in personality.

I know this is running long, but there were two things which were brought up which I wanted to tackle. Back on page 1, someone (sorry, I forgot to copy the name) said

This and its counter seem to get brought up in every other thread about religion. I’m probably going to get in trouble for this, but it’s been my experience that belief in the supernatural and leading an ethical life are not related. As evidence, I offer supremely ethical atheists, cruel Christians, and a friend (and now Board lurker) who went from Fundamentalism to Atheism to Wicca who I have no doubt was quite ethical throughout all 3 phases (I only met him after he became a Wiccan).

I’ve occaisionally asked God to keep me safe while travelling. I’ve also been aware that it’s my obligation to drive safely. That includes not going 50 miles an hour on ice-covered roads and not driving if I’m exhausted, or, if I must, being prepared to pull off to the side of the road and nap if I must. Ignorance and folly happen. Yes, it’s awful, and yes, it’s painful, and no, I don’t have an answer. Please add that to the long list of things I intend to complain to God about when I get done with this life. That and my connection cutting out just as I finish this way-too-long post.

Two cents? This is long enough to be two bucks, but thanks for bearing with me.

CJ

106

Sorry to check in to a thread I suggested so late, but I’ve been busy for the past couple of days. This time Polycarp has said things quite eloquently for me, but I can’t resist adding my two cents.

With regard to the original post, as I mentioned earlier, it’s very hard for me to conceive of circumstances which would lead me to give up my faith. Arrogant or cruel Christians? I’d be willing to bet I’ve met and been condemned by as many as just about any non-Christian in this thread. What makes it worse is I can’t disown them. Tragedy? I won’t try to top others here, but I have experienced my share. Appeal to logic? If being a Christian is considered synonymous with being ignorant (note the “if”, folks), then I plead willful ignorance. My faith withstands my tests of logic as applied to theology (a potentially biased and narrow subset, I admit).

Look, God in the worldly form of the Episcopal Church has been there for me throughout my life in a way that no other entity has been. When I was a kid growing up in a somewhat emotionally abusive family, and an outright abusive school situation, the church was the one place I could go and not be abused. When I moved to Hawai’i for a job and didn’t know a soul, the people at St. Andrew’s became a second family to me. On about the basest and most practical level you can get, when I hit a major financial crisis after losing a job in Hawai’i, they gave me money to pay my rent. Now, this message board is wonderful for emotional and moral support, and I’m aware of Dopers coming through for each other in rough times, so I realize you could have a lot of fun with SDMB as a religion, but that’s only part of it.

As I mentioned in a different thread, two weeks ago I suddenly and unexpectedly got laid off. I’m looking for work, but I know the realities of the tech economy in America at the moment. I could blame God for this, complaining that I was happy in my job, that I was doing good work, that I was doing Good Works (I started a food drive among other things). That’s just going to make me more depressed and anxious. Instead, I am quite deliberately choosing to trust that God knows what he wants me to do next while putting together a good resume (including text version), checking the want ads, networking, etc. Am I using religion as a crutch? You betcha! Right now, my knees are a little week, and I could use the support.

People have asked why some people get signs and they don’t. I can’t answer that. I’ve seen miracles, including one major one, but I know that at least half of that miracle can be explained by logic, and the other half, as a wild-ass guess, by psychological conditioning. You can take away my critical thinking card and my Mensa membership if you like (though not for another week, please), but I choose to believe in the events that happened as a miracle. I’ve asked for comfort the past two weeks, when I’ve wondered how I’m going to get the money to pay the bills, and I have received it. I am convinced there is something wondrous and special outside my ken, and I derive too much benefit from that belief to surrender it without extremely powerful evidence to the contrary or a major (and presumably traumatic) change in personality.

I know this is running long, but there were two things which were brought up which I wanted to tackle. Back on page 1, someone (sorry, I forgot to copy the name) said

This and its counter seem to get brought up in every other thread about religion. I’m probably going to get in trouble for this, but it’s been my experience that belief in the supernatural and leading an ethical life are not related. As evidence, I offer supremely ethical atheists, cruel Christians, and a friend (and now Board lurker) who went from Fundamentalism to Atheism to Wicca who I have no doubt was quite ethical throughout all 3 phases (I only met him after he became a Wiccan).

I’ve occaisionally asked God to keep me safe while travelling. I’ve also been aware that it’s my obligation to drive safely. That includes not going 50 miles an hour on ice-covered roads and not driving if I’m exhausted, or, if I must, being prepared to pull off to the side of the road and nap if I must. Ignorance and folly happen. Yes, it’s awful, and yes, it’s painful, and no, I don’t have an answer. Please add that to the long list of things I intend to complain to God about when I get done with this life. That and my connection cutting out just as I finish this way-too-long post.

Two cents? This is long enough to be two bucks, but thanks for bearing with me.

CJ

107

I sure came late to this thread, but here’s my input:

My faith definitely rests heavily on evidence and study of the bible. But that is not its only (or even primary) foundation: It’s a relationship with a being that I know exists, because I experience the relationship.

I can’t prove to you that God exists any more than I can prove to you who my father is. You demand rigorous proof that he is who I say he is, and I can’t give it to you. Everything that I can offer is subjective and based on my relationship and experiences with him. But regardless of whether you’re convinced, I know. I’ve known him for almost 32 years, and nothing you could say to me or show me would convince me otherwise.

Same goes for God, only moreso. No level of evidence could prove to me that He doesn’t exist. Because I’ve spent 20 years knowing Him.

108

For those who don’t want to read that monster of a post I wrote earlier, here’s the short version (some points omitted, of course). Over the years, the Episcopal Church has given me love, acceptance, support, and money. I’m supposed to give that up for what, exactly?

I realize other people’s experiences with Christianity have been vastly different, and I do regret that. That’s also one of the things I’m trying to change from within the church.

CJ

109

I have heard this concept from many friends who are not entirely religious, some of whom would sneer at what they would call the “bullshit” rules of catholism and especially christianity.
one friend explained the way she felt was she kenw that there was something more than material atoms to this world and whenever she was hurting or in pain she knew that “he” was there, but after a while of discussing this she told me that maybe it was probably a socio-human security blanket, like the way when children feel isolated they make imaginary friends to give themselves a kind of strength, but she attached this mechanism to the religious knowledge and lore within her consciousness. its seems more like, its not that god is there rather the human consciousness uses this defence mechanism long after childhood and seek an explanation for it subconsciously and there it is its god, and in a sense it IS god, and if thats what god IS a natural mental defence that comforts the human condition, then thats a pretty positive thing.

110

EchoKitty, No documentation? How about the** Bible**?! Jesus was here on earth and it was documented. People stood next to Him, ate with Him, asked Him questions!

The day I die and God is not there, that and only then will I believe there is no God.

111

I’m not good at making my responses look good in print (haven’t figured it out yet!), so forgive me if it’s hard to follow. I slightly indented my new text:
quote:

Originally posted by EchoKitty
So what? That happens to non-believers all the time! ALL the time! Are you suggesting that these two new babies are going to replace the souls of your two lost loved ones?

Did I say it was exclusive to believers?

No, but why bring it up in this thread if you didn’t think it was integral to the conversation?

You obviously missed the point I made.

Obviously. So what was your point?

That isn’t what troubles me about your reply. It was this:
quote:

…Well, it turned out her friend’s child was a Down’s Syndrome baby and the mother was too freaked out to even call. Where was god during THAT “blessed” event?

He was right there with the child and the parents. It was a special blessing given to them, though I doubt you can understand that right now.

Don’t be troubled. I’m as compassionate as any christian I’ve ever met…even moreso in many cases. I’m sure you’ll let me know when it’s time for me to understand!

Down’s children are the sweetest, most loving child that have graced their parents lives (according to them).

According to “some” of them. Don’t go being a spokesperson for the whole Down’s Syndrome community. Many people’s lives are destroyed by this unfortunate syndrome.

The tragedy is not a “Down’s child”. The tragedy is people who think that child is less deserving of being loved.

Who said anyone thought the child is less deserving? As a matter of fact, the family created a home for special needs children (well-known in the Chicago area). These wonderful people were able to take a horrible tragedy and turn it into something that benefits many people.
quote:

And how do you know what the future brings for the two new babies in your family (best wishes to all, by the way)?

Having already lost my little grandson to brain cancer, I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. What I do know is how much these children are already loved and that they will be welcomed with open arms into our family.
Of course they’ll be loved. They’d be loved in my non-christian family too. That’s not the point.

112

I should have said that these responses were to Edlyn’s post. Sorry.

113

Jersey Diamond said, "EchoKitty, No documentation? How about the Bible?! Jesus was here on earth and it was documented. People stood next to Him, ate with Him, asked Him questions! "

The fact that a human being walked on this Earth is no big deal. It doesn’t account for the supernatural events credited to him, and it certainly doesn’t account for the existence of a god. One book doesn’t make a fact!

114

EchoKitty:

I agree that formatting can be tricky at times. I’m sure most everyone will be able to follow along anyway as I did.

I have only one comment to make concerning your responses. No matter whether what style you choose to use, your response still does not look good in print.

115

I certainly do not speak for all non-theists, but IMHO I don’t want you to give your church up. I am genuinely happy for you that your community has been there for you in the times when you needed it most. All I ask is that the Christians stop telling everyone else* that they are going to be put in an eternal self cleaning oven just because they dont think like the Christians. And more to the point, that they stop slandering others and legislating their personal morality on others.

Then I congratulate you, and I hope more Christians begin to think like you. I don’t know a single nontheist who couldn’t get behind the concept of simply loving and caring for others. All we ask is that we don’t suffer in the social milieu** for not being like you. In a management class I took recently, they stressed the importance of always assuming noble intent, which is to say not falling into the trap of thinking your own motivations to be pure and others to be base. Did anyone catch that Poly said earlier how much respect he had for certain atheists\agnostics? How many times do you hear a Christian say that? How many times do you hear a nontheist mention Christians they deeply respect? Not often on both counts, that’s for sure. And it’s a shame.

Mars
who increasingly thinks should change his username to Rodney King. :rolleyes:

  • cj, I have never observed an occasion where you did condemn others, and I am not lumping you in with that group.

** that phrase sounds so self important, but I couldn’t think of another way to say it.

116

Carl Sagan said in one of his books that he wished that one of the people who spoke to an alien learned something that science doesn’t know. The same goes for people with a personal relationship to God. Next time you chat with him, ask him if P = NP (an unsolved conjecture in the theory of the complexity of algorithms, he’ll know what it means.)

Alexander the Great had a personal relationship with Zeus. What would convince you your relationship is not just cultural indoctrination, a fluke of your psyche, or a side effect of what you had for dinner?

117

Especially when that book is full of contradictions, historical inaccuraccies, and absurdities. Plus, there is no evidence of its existence until way after the events. Plus, the curious case of the mass conversion of the Jews in Jerusalem because of the events of the crucifiction.

“But there was no mass conversion,” you say.

Precisely, Watson, precisely.

Washington throwing the dollar across the Delaware was documented sooner after the supposed events than the Bible was written, and we know that both Washington and Parson Weems existed. Do you believe that story?

118

Hijacky tone spurred by some posts on page one of this thread describing priests who had lost their faith due to personal hardship, and this one in particular:

I read an SF novel by David Gerrold recently. I like the author, but this book was a bit hacky (didn’t help that it was in the middle sequence of a series, and I didn’t read the first book). Anyway, one of the characters in the book posits that the meme/idea, “Do good, and you will be rewarded.” is one of most significantly harmful things ever to take hold in the minds of humans, because:

  1. Good works aren’t always rewarded.

  2. If you once believed in this meme, you may now see no reason to do good.

  3. Doing good ought to be its own reward.

The point of the narrative character was that both belief and unbelief (#2) in this meme were a major factor in the collapse of the society. There were no longer enough people who did good without expectation of reward.

–

In my view, this belief structure could lead down interesting paths. The crusader/conquistador/missionary-force/inquisitor says, “These mussulmen/savages/pagans/jews don’t believe in our true god, so they have no expectation of reward for doing good. Therefore, they don’t do good, they must be doing evil. We should kill them to keep them from doing evil. In fact, it’s a favor to kill them as soon as possible, the less evil they will do, so they won’t be cast to the deepest pits of hell. If we capture any, we should convert them to worship of the true god so that their souls can be saved. Perhaps we will need to then kill them immediately, so that they cannot backslide and lose their true faith. These things will count as us doing good, for which our eventual stations in heaven shall rise ever higher.”

AmbushBug
[sub]guess[/sub]

119

Edlyn, you can read anything you want into my post, but I didn’t say what you think I said. I truly am sorry for your losses, and I truly am happy for you and the upcoming family expansion. The point I’m making is that they are totally independent of each other. Your post sounded like you thought they were directly related to each other. Life is good and life sucks. It is our challenge to make the best of what we’re given. I don’t think christians strive any harder toward that goal than anyone else. I don’t think they have a higher success rate than anyone else. It’s just life.

120

Not necessarily science but to construct a coherent system of thought based on our daily experiences to show the existence of the Judeo-Christianity god. This is what exactly the theologicians have been doing since St. Augustine, probably earlier. If faith is all it takes why would all these men with great intelligence have been attempting such a task? Clearly they were (are) not satisfied with this “personal experience” business.

It seems that a reasoned approach to YHWH is impossible, since the theologicians have failed so far in their work.