What would happen if we "unleashed" India?

Not since the last time I played Risk with my 12-year-old nephew have I observed anyone with such a keen grasp of foreign affairs.

No wonder the Taliban think we’re soft. First we get the Mujahadeen to fight the Russians for us. Then we get the Northern Alliance to fight the Taliban for us. And heck, if Pakistan raises a ruckus, why we can just get India to fight that war for us. (And if that doesn’t work, we can always “unleash” China, right?)

Here’s an idea. Why don’t we gird our loins and fight our own battles?

India wishes to solidify its claim to Kashmir, nothing more. They have no desire to conquer Pakistan, or to be our cannon fodder in a war against the Taliban.

That explains why the Axis thought we were such softies in 1945. I’m sure as the bullet was entering Hitler’s brain, as Mussolini was dangling by his ankles, as Admiral Yamamoto’s plane was going down in flames, each was thinking: “Doze ferschlunger American softies! Vhy kahn’t dey gird dere loins und feight dere own battles, radder dan ask the British/French/Russians/Australians/Chinese/New Zealanders/Canadians for help? Vhat vheeklings!”

Yes, spoke, a firm grasp of foreign affairs indeed. Thanks for the comic relief.

As for your statements about India and Pakistan, I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you were simply to lazy to read most of the subsequent discussion in this thread. Otherwise I would have to conclude that you were merely ignoring the excellent points made by xanakis, Zenster and others and instead continued bleating your own flat unsubstantiated assertions. And that, my boy, would be a sign of true stupidity.

Buh-bye.

You know, I’ve noticed something curious: both “TruthFinder” and spoke have stated more or less explicity that we should be prepared to “accept defeat” rather than seek an alliance with one of the major powers in the region.

I never thought I would have to ask this, but I’m asking it:

“TruthFinder”, spoke, whose side are you on?

I don’t know who you are or where you’re from, but (silly me) I had been riding on one other assumption, unstated up to now: The US Should Win This War. If you don’t accept this most fundamental premise, I hope you’ll make this clear so as to better evaluate your posts, not to mention your selves. If we were having a similar conversation sixty-odd years ago, and you were arguing vehemently against (say) Lend-Lease, it would be pertinent to the debate to know if you happened to be a Nazi sympathizer.

DR:

 Read my post again. If the US doesn't have the wherewithal to invade Afghanistan itself, **then** the US should accept defeat. But dont expect India-Pak to fight that war for u. If the US cant do it itself, then all the rhetoric about the 'US should win the war' while true, would just remain impotent wishful thinking.

As to whose side I am on, get this. If the US wishes, to use India-Pak as cannon fodder, pitching one country against the other, to gain its self interests, then I'm definetly, not on the US side. I'm on India's side which would definitely not want a nuclear war.

Ironically, Pak openly supports terrorists activites inside Kashmir. And Pak is a US ally. The US seems to have no problem with terrorism when their allies perpetrate it. I ask u, Whose side is the US on?

As to that slur about Nazi sympathisers, I guess all those Americans protesting the Vietnam war were Nazi sympathisers in ur eyes.

Apparently, u have no regard for the lives of innocent people in the sub-continent both Indian and Pak. U’d gladly have them fight an almost certan nuclear war just to get at OBL. IMO, u r the one who is showing Nazist tendencies.

Respectfully, I think “u” are letting your emotions cloud your judgement in your thread. If you go back and read carefully, you’ll see that the scenario I suggest presumes that a fundamentalist regime comes to power in Islamabad. In this event–againIohsopatientlyrepeatandGodgrantmestrength–India . . . has . . . far . . . more . . . to . . . lose . . . than . . . we . . . in . . . the . . . US. . . ever . . . will.

So, I suggest–and some others including xanakis seem to agree–that India will be moving a helluva lot faster than we will in this event. My view is that India and the US have a convergence of interests in this case, and an alliance is the best chance of avoiding a nuclear war, while at the same time removing a mutually-perceived threat. If you disagree with this argument, please provide your reasons, not just your emotions.

As for what I said about Nazi sympathizers: sorry, but I do regard bin Laden and the Taliban as poisonous vermin every bit as nasty as the Nazis. To be “neutral” in this conflict, or say that you’re just looking out for yerself, is not only immoral–it’s really, really dumb. Again, India is a lot closer to the spreading cancer of militant Islamic fundamentalism than we are.

The US had no problem fostering the Islamic mujahedeen against the Soviets. The US has no problem supporting Pakistan even now while it provides support for terrorism in Kashmir. Talk about immorality!! Guess I should take ur post as a confession of how short-sighted and dumb US policy really is !!

 India would have much more to lose under a fundamentalist regime in Pakistan, true. Thats precisely the reason India wouldn't want to **start** a war. If India is attacked, Then it can take care of itself as it has in the past. India doesnt need any country's approval for its own self-defense.

However, self-defense and the US actively encouraging war between the 2 countries are 2 very different things.

The first is entirely manageable and Indian motives are reasonable. Indian territorial concerns only extend upto Kashmir. India can defend that.

The second would mean that India will never have peace with Pakistan. India will be left with a hostile region it did not want in the first place. If the Afghani resistance for 30 years is anything to go by, India does not want to go down that road. India and Pakistan would be left in the same mess the US left Afghanistan in after the Soviets left. And that should be simply unacceptable for India.

Doghouse Reilly: Yes, I do think India would be concerned by a fundamentalist regime in Pakistan. Very concerned. But I still don’t think they’d attempt to occupy Pakistan to prevent or oust one. Let’s look at some likely scenarios:

#1 - Revolution occurs from the ground up. Pakistan military stays overwhelmingly loyal to Musharraf. In this scenario the rebellion fails ( at least short term ) and India is prevented from intervening by both Pakistan and the United States. Possibly excepting Turkey, Pakistan’s military is the most formidable in the Muslim world. As long as they stay intact, loyal, and supplied ( all big ifs ), no coup will be successful.

#2 - Pakistan’s military remains intact and functional, but goes fundamentalist, ousting Musharaff. In this case the U.S. and India are screwed. Again, Pakistan’s army is nothing too fuck around with. They’re not half-trained levies with crappy morale like 70% of the Iraqi army was during the Gulf War. If they choose to deny the U.S. and India, the cost would be too high to attempt to maintain Musharaff or a related regime. At least for India ( IMO ). It would take a committment of at least two-thirds of the Indian army ( at least 600,00 troops in other words ) to even attempt to breech the border, let alone occupy Pakistan in the teeth of full-on resistance, with little guarantee of complete success ( India did pretty decently in 1971, but they weren’t even close to breaking the front by the time peace was declared ). No intervention occurs.

#3 - Pakistan’s military fractures. Some coherent chunks support Musharraf, others do not. In this scenario Musharaff struggles for control, possibly accepting aid from the U.S., but refusing it from India in order to maintain some semblance of legitimacy. The U.S. seeking to prop up Musharaff concurs - As indeed they must, as a Pakistani faction allying with India would be the political kiss of death. India is prevented from intervening by the U.S. .

#4 - The Pakistani military disintegrates into ineffectual chaos ( as per Iran in 1979 ). This would be the scenario, if any, that would invite full Indian intervention. But India is the archenemy of Pakistan both politically, and after all these decades, to some extent in an ingrained cultural sense as well. Any Indian intervention would trigger wide-scale revulsion and cause Pakistan to rally against the “invader”. The Pakistani military would spontaneously reconstitute ( as occurred in Iran as a result of the Iraqi invasion ), the people would rise and India would be in a mother of an unwinnable guerilla war. Again, I think intervention is highly unlikely.

Now, as I said, I don’t put it past India to try to rearrange the borders a tad during any of the above scenarios. But I think in terms of cost/benfit analysis, the potential threat of a fundamentalist regime which is almost bound to be fragile and prone to implosion ( perhaps with a helping hand from the U.S., or even, clandestinely, India ), is less than the certain cost of going in to the epitome of “enemy territory” and attempting to put in place a government that by its very nature will be illegitimate in the eyes of the people because it is backed by India ( and annexing Pakistan would be out of the question - It would be like Israel trying to annex Syria, not worth the headache ). A fundamentalist regime is a threat to India. But not an apocalyptic one. Pakistan is far more vulnerable to a nuclear exchange and India’s internal security apparatus is impressively large.

And to repeat myself - I still don’t think India gives a shit about Afghanistan, specifically. Even if, somehow, they did end up occupying Pakistan, I can’t see them stretching themselves even thinner to hunt guerillas in the Hindu Kush. For cultural reasons I regard Taliban-style fundamentalism to be unexportable en masse to India’s Muslim population. Hell, it hasn’t even taken hold in most of Afghanistan ( many folks there may be fundamentalists, but they mostly aren’t on the Taliban’s wavelength - The difference is sometimes referred to as “ultra-fundamentalist” vs. “fundamentalist” ). Before this mess happened I was predicting an eventual implosion by the Taliban in the near-future - Opposition even among their “allies” was on the rise. The al-Quaeda are a threat as a terrorist organization, but India is not their primary concern, and crushing them in Afghanistan doesn’t remove them as a threat anyway.

A final point - India does want to be viewed as a great power, I’m pretty sure. But they were a founder and the prime mover behind the Non-Aligned Nations and seem to take that status very seriously. Not quite to the Switzerland level, perhaps. But I am of the opinion that they wouldn’t have any interest in any strategic alliance with the U.S., even if offered. It would run contrary to their current political culture. It might even create internal difficulties that could unseat a government.

Nope. I still don’t think your scenario is likely. Just my $.02 :slight_smile: .

  • Tamerlane

You guessed my secret, TruthFinder: I do actually set US foreign policy, though it hurts me to see you characterize it as short-sighted and dumb. Yes, IRL my name is Colin Powell, and I troll around these boards looking for fresh foreign policy ideas. It’s therefore perfectly reasonable and just that you take my posts as evidence as the morality or immorality of US policy. I’ll be sure to tell George when I see him.

As for Tamerlane: I appreciate your thoughtful post, and I’m going wait until I have a little more time (just about to go out the door now) to respond. Just a fast note: in the event of an implosion and a fracturing of Pakistan’s military, can we still automatically assume that an Indian intervention would be thrown back by the mystical and all-uniting hatred for India by Pakistan’s people? Or, as some other posters seem to suggest, are there tribal and political fault lines that would give lie to the idea that Pakistan would always present a united front? Even France and the Maginot Line couldn’t keep a foe that knew how to exploit its weaknesses.

Again, I’m trying to learn more, and I hope to continue this discussion when I get back tonight.

DHR

IAAI(I AM an Indian)… So here goes

Although the thought of “unleashing” India on a unstable Pakistan is kinda far fetched to say the least, there is certainly some merit in the thought that the Indian govt will see some advantage accruing to them. This will primarily be in the form of settling the Kashmir issue once and for all.

I do not for a moment think that part of a state that has offered very little to the country in the recent past in terms of revenue is worth shedding so much blood over. For those not in the know, parts of Kashmir are like a permanent war zone for the last few years. The only reason why India is probably fighting to keep it is that giving it up might set off a very very dangerous precendent for other seccesionary forces.

I think that having an unstable govt in Pakistan would make all of us Indians very nervous. In a perverse I think that India would like to see a strong and prosperous Pakistan (at least most straight thinking folks), because that way we do not have a country that hates us so much and makes India spend like the dickens on defence. Something a country like India could do well without.

I think one of the posters talked about the hate between the common populace of the two countries. All I can say about Indians is that we are certainly not obsessed with it like the world likes to think.

Well I don’t mean to imply that there is anything “mystical” about it :slight_smile: . Nor do I think Pakistanis and Indians spend most of their life consumed with hatred of the other side. What I do think is that these are national enemies on a par with, say, Turkey and Greece. Pakistan’s very existence is based on separation from India at independance and three “big” wars and a whole heck of a lot of little ones has hardened that political attitude over the decades. Just as fractious Iran united in the face of the Iraqi invasion in 1979, I think Pakistan would do the same if confronted with a massive occupation force of Indian troops. I just don’t see a substantial portion of the Pakistani population blithely accepting India’s good intentions ( even if they were ). Now a bief U.S. intervention might be tolerated more readily by at least the westernized intelligentsia that have a lot to lose under a fundamentalist regime and remeber U.S. ties. But I think the popular suspicison as regards India puts them in a class of one. As a nation they are least likely to be accepted as arbiters by the Pakistani people. Just MHO of course, so take it with a grain of salt.

Re: Everybody has their weaknesses - Well, sure. I didn’t say India couldn’t do it. I just think it would be too costly to be worth it. Especially for a nation with more limited economic resources, like India. The logistic cost alone would be staggering.

  • Tamerlane

Oh … So this is how a troll OP looks like.
Now I know why they say, dont feed the troll.

I’m glad you found a word you could understand in my post. Keep it up! Work on spelling and apostrophe usage, and you’ll almost be ready to crack the TOEFL!
As for the thread topic: I think I’m going into watch and wait mode vis-a-vis what happens in the news, and I may revive this debate at some point–or create a new thread–in order to discuss pertinent developments. I have to say that I still strongly suspect that there are some major strategic shifts underway on the subcontinent. I believe that opposing views in this thread may be drawing on historical paradigms that may no longer be relevant. Specifically, I think India may find that being a declared nuclear power will push it in directions that it never would have considered back when “non-aligned” carried a much lower opportunity cost.

'Til then . . . see ya.

In a thread entitled “What would happen if we ‘unleashed’ India?”, it strikes me that if Doghouse Reilly were really “trying to learn more” perhaps he would pay more regard to the opinions of Indians, such as TruthFinder, who probably has far more pertinent knowledge than he does…

I thought anu-la1979 and ashtayk brought valuable input to the thread, as did you yourself. However, TruthFinder in large part did not. What, just because someone happens to hail from that region, I have no right to regard him as an idiot? That’s like me saying to someone living overseas that they have no right to question the opinions of(say) Pat Buchanan when we’re talking about some topic concerning America.

I doubt that India would be interested in taking Pakistan as a whole–Kashmir is another matter. But going with this as a truth…

The OP still assumes that even if America or the Western world or whatever did “unleash” India, they would be capable of winning such a war. I understand that you are talking about a recently-toppled Pakistani government and a therefore fairly disorganized infrastructure in Pakistan at the time of said invasion, but moreso than most coups, an overthrowal of a government based on Pres./Gen. Musharraf’s control of the military powers of the country would necessarily involve other senior military commanders, so Pakistan would not be in quite a defenseless position as you might think. And I really don’t want to get into the specifics of a hypothetical (and highly improbable) military scenario, but it is common knowledge that campaigns fought on the enemy’s soil are considerably more difficult and costly. Add in to all this the fact that we are talking about the Indian military here, a fighting force that has (no offense to any Indians reading the thread) hardly shown itself to be a highly efficient and intimidating bunch.

I know that the assumptions are that the US has already used its intelligence and hardware to neutralise the Pakistani nuclear arsenal, but do you really think that their participation could stop there? Pakistan, relatively speaking, is not a walkover militarily, as the fact that they spend such a high percentage of their GDP on military spending to run up hundreds of millions in debt each year would suggest, so your plan necessitates more than just “unleashing” the Indians–if anything, the US would have to walk with them and bring a some heavy-duty gloves to clean up the mess.

Of course, if the proposal was, as certain statements later made it seem to be, to do all this invading of Pakistan BEFORE an actual overthrowal by the supposed masses of fundamentalists foaming at the mouth (all I’ve seen and heard about are demonstrations smaller than those against government funding for Mapplethorpe exhibits), I can’t begin to offer a rebuttal. Hypotheticals should at least have some basis in the real world, eh?

You know I agree with most of your post, but I’m not sure I agree with that one part. Indian performance in 1971 was actually pretty credible, especially in the East ( granted the Pakistani commander there folded like a house of cards ). India has a pretty strong military tradition, both culturally and in direct descent from the British empire. And India has spent a great deal of time and money reforming and expanding their military in order to achieve the status of “regional superpower”.

I think you’re selling them short. For developing nations, IMHO both India and Pakistan actually have fairly formidable militaries, with a fair bit of professionalism.

  • Tamerlane

Apparently Pakistan fears that the US, or India, or even Israel might engage in a pre-emptive strike against its nuclear arsenal–so much so, that it is considering moving its nuclear weapons to China. (All according to this article from the Indian Express.) I’d wait until another media source picks up the story before regarding it as authoritative, but isn’t this interesting?

And all of this is why;

A) Whatever idiot in Washington who revealed these plans needs to be strung up by his heels and belabored with golf clubs.

B) If there is credible evidence that Pakistan is going to move their warheads to China we need to seriously consider confiscating them.

C) Trusting the Chinese with your nuclear arsenal is like asking the school bully to hold your lunch money for you.
All of this is truly insane. If Pakistan has been forced to seriously consider such a move it is almost a clarion call for us to take independent action. However much this may be some twisted sort of self-fulfilling prophecey, we need to analyse this situation rather carefully. Such a degree of instability on the part of the Pakistani military bodes equally unwell as China gaining any sort of sway in a dispute so patently deleterious to our own national interests.

I’m with you on this one DR. I want to see separate confirmation of this story first.

Zenster,

Remind me never to allow you on a crisis management team.

No, if someone revealed specifics perhaps this might be the case. This has all the markings of a balloon. It merely states the obvious.

Perhaps, or perhaps we would consider something more reasonable than an action which might well provoke the fall of the Musharraf regime and the loss of Pakistani territory as a base, however limited, for operations.

Such as bribery, such as stalling etc.

Probably true, which is why this is likely posturing on the part of Pakistani elements in reaction to posturing elsewhere.

Don’t be silly. It is a reminder to those who think this is all a done deal that behind the public facades, a lot of gaming of the situation is going on.

Yes, but that has been true from the get go. Do you think I was smoking crack when I was noting the touchy, unstable situation in Pakistan? Let me put it this way, Pakistan rates an E as I recall from the EIU* on their risk scale. F is the worst, which seems to mean a world of shit. Even Burkina Faso does better.

(* you have to subscribe to their risk service to see this)

I’m not quite clear what you’re getting at here, other than like I said previously, we don’t have any good choices, only less bad ones.

In any case, this whole thread has the air of … unreality about it.

I thought this thread was a bit too Tom Clancey for me, too, but I’ll drop my two cents…

The idea of India advancing into Pakistan reminds me of a foreign policy class I attended at university. Someone advocated fixing Australian-Indonesian tensions by having Australia invade Indonesia. Reduce tensions and improve security by increasing tensions and causing a fight. Non sequitur.

Students of international affairs know that the realist theory advocates that one of if not the driving force in international relations is protection of integrity of sovereignty. If India invades Pakistan to quell a fundamentalist takeover, there goes the sub-continent.

Nice to hear from Ashtayk, too, on this.