What is the significance of the black stone?
Darn, you edited just as I was preparing a Civilization-related joke.
Sorry, I felt like I was hijacking the thread. 
So, no major crisis of faith. I bet they’d still be pretty pissed though.
There wouldn’t be any retaliation against Western countries, because Islam is a religion of peace.
People’s religious symbols getting blown up doesn’t typically result in them sitting down and thinking “hmm, maybe I’ve been wrong this whole time.” There wouldn’t be a crisis of faith, there would be a renewed fervor in it.
Have there been cases where even rumors of attacks on Mecca resulted in retaliation against non-Muslims?
So, anyone want to blow up Christ of the Ozarks?
Actually historically the Jews would cut off the heads of idols when conquering their enemies. It is a sign that one person’s God can beat up the other person’s God. Like I said, I didn’t want to hijack the thread anymore. I find the notion of a terrorist making it into the Hajj preposterous. It is more realistic to imagine us Nuking Mecca IMO. If we nuked it in such a way as to scatter the shards of the Kaaba to where it couldn’t be repaired, that would be a little different than a catapult cracking it, but that’s another matter for another thread.
Really? I think a sufficiently determined group could pull it off. Further, I think if anyone actually staged such an attack, it wouldn’t be a bereaved Westerner or a provocation-seeking Russian but a Muslim angry at other Muslims.
Brian Ekers
There are rumors of an incident 20+ years ago where a lot of Iranian Hajjis got into Mecca and tried to take over the religious sites. Supposedly they had some initial success. I’m not sure what happened but they weren’t trying to destroy anything and were promptly arrested, shot, or whatever.
As an aside, I knew a Brit who claimed to have driven through Mecca one night. The guy was actually lost and the guards at the checkpoint were sleepy and just waved him through. He had some issues when he tried to leave but the guards really didn’t want the hassle and told him to just go away and shut up.
Regards
Testy
I agree, a duplication of what the 9-11 hijackers pulled would probably work fine. From my experience, airports in this region don’t take security nearly as serious as other places, so I don’t think it would be hard to smuggle items far more dangerous than box cutters on board.
By definition, there can be no such thing as a “dhimmi army.” Dhimmi isn’t a general synonym for ‘non-Muslim’, it means certain specific non-Muslim populations of some religions under Islamic rule who are bound by a covenant (dhimmah) which prescribes certain limitations on them-- including no bearing of arms. The word you’re looking for is harbi, which is in fact the antonym of dhimmi.
Really :dubious:
Pro-Western Islamic Governments would be in deep shit. That’s what would happen.
The House of Saud would almost certainly be overthrown. A great deal of their regime’s legitimacy is wrapped up in their role as protectors of the Hajj. Add that failure to their cozy relations with the US, and they’d be much chaos in Saudi Arabia.
Which means we’d better start riding bikes to work.
Over in Pakistan, Musharaff would also be in trouble. He’d be more able to handle it, I think, especially since western powers would give him all the help he wants in keeping his nukes out of the hands of angry religious rebels.
Turkey and Egypt would have to make some angry noises to keep their populations happy.
Lebanon and Palestine would get a bit more stirred up than usual, but Palestine can’t really get any more outraged than it already is.
Iran’s stance wouldn’t change much at all. But the Ayatollahs would become even more popular on a platform of “we fucking told you so”.
And the US would be told to get the fuck out of Iraq. NOW. In terms that make it clear to everyone that there’s absolutely *no *chance of getting *any *cooperation from Iraqis.
But really, overall, once the Pakistani rebels are beaten back, the big thing would be the loss of the Saudi oilfields to sworn enemies of the West, who may not even capture intact the infrastructure needed to pump the stuff.
What’s security like over there? I mean with all those clothers, inspecting people must be a real chore, and if you don’t, you could have pretty much anything hidden in there. And from what I have seen, the volume of people is just too much to even try. How does this work?
Sapo
Security is about the same as everywhere else. Metal detectors work just fine through a thobe. How intensely you get scanned depends on how things are going at the moment. Some days, the foil on a stick of gum will set the thing off, other days it won’t. Most days you have to take off your shoes and belt. If you’re coming into the country from somewhere else, your luggage gets X-rayed and occasionally gone over by either dope dogs or bomb dogs. In summary, security when entering or leaving is not much different than anywhere else. For Hajj, which is coming up shortly, the airport security people put a lot of additional staff on duty. Jeddah is a bit of a nightmare due to the traffic and I wouldn’t go there for worlds while Hajj is going on.
Regards
Testy
mswas
I agree. Bombing the Hajj would be one of those things where nobody wins. What’s the incentive to do something like this?
Access to Mecca is controlled when someone is flying in for this purpose. There are quotas for each country and a lot of negotiation goes on every year over what the number should be. I think the bit you mentio about needing a Muslim cleric to vouch for you is applicable if you’re coming in from overseas somewhere. People in Saudi tend to go quite frequently for what’s called Umra in addition to the Hajj. Don’t ask me too much more about Umra because it’s not something I really know that much about.
If you’re living in Saudi you get an Iqama (resident’s permit) that is green if you are Muslim or brown if you’re something else. Those with a green Igama can go most any time they like. There are outfits like religious tour organizers that will take you there and generally support you while you take care of your religious duties.
Regards
Testy
Thanks for the response. I am more curious about the holy sites themselves, though. In videos you see this stream of people circling around with no interruptions. Is there any kind of security at the site itself?
Sapo
Nothing automated. There are one hell of a lot of guards though. The guards tend to do more crowd-control, and emergency response than checking for bad guys. They do not let just anyone wander into the sites without some kind of ID. As an oh-by-the-way, the official Hajjis circling the box usually wear a robe of sorts made of toweling. I guess you could conceal something small under it but anything larger than a small pistol or the like would probably show up. Also, the crowds are amazing, people bumping into you and things like that. People have been knocked from their feet and trampled on occasion. According to a Saudi friend of mine, the African Hajjis are the worst as they link arms for the march and tend to be large people. I don’t think you could get anything substantial into the area. Getting something into just the city would probably be no more difficult than other cities if you had the right ID.
Hope that was what you wanted.
Testy