You asked how I could be certain that I would never come to believe in God. It’s probably the same thing that gives you the certainty that you will always believe. Your perspective on the world is based on the existence of God. Mine is not.
I have a feeling that if you try to imagine the world without God, you see everything as cold and empty. When I imagine the world without God, I see everything exactly as it is today. If you really want to understand my viewpoint, you need to understand that statement.
You also asked what I mean by “I tried to believe.” I will post an answer in the Agnostic/Atheist Epiphanies thread, as I think it is a more appropriate place. Here’s a link…
Oh, I don’t blame you. There isn’t any way you could have seen my posts that explained what kind of Love God is, nor could you have understood from my posts that I do not recognize the entity FoG refers to in his posts as God, nor could you have known that I view religion as a whole as a political machine that doesn’t know God from a hole in the ground.
Sorry, no, doesn’t answer the point. All you’ve done here is toggle the default position.
So let me rephrase too: My parents are still very religious. I have to imagine that, if they get to Heaven and I don’t follow someday, Heaven will be a place of everlasting sorrow for them. Christians claim God loves me just as much as, if not more than, my parents do, and that my absence from Heaven will pain him just as much.
Yet here I am on Earth, and with my imperfect reasoning skills, imperfect character, and woefully inadequate evidence, I have only a handful of decades to figure all this out and make a decision with eternal consequences. That is inconsistent with a loving and forgiving God.
Everyone without access to Christian teaching over the past 2000 years doesn’t get the opportunity to make this decision. So pre-Columbian Americans, pre-Cook Australians, present-day tribes in remote rainforests, even people in the industrialized world who live sheltered lives, are just fucked. That is inconsistent with a loving and forgiving God.
Adam, Eve, Abraham, Hammurabi, Moses, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Solomon, millions of Cro-Magnons, the entire column of Australopithecines, and everyone else who lived before Christ’s sacrifice never had an opportunity for eternal life. That is inconsistent with a loving and forgiving God.
For that matter, the very idea that God would let us all languish for thousands or millions of years before sending his “son” to “save” us all implies that it didn’t occur to Him before then. Why didn’t he send Jesus right after the Fall (which presumably is when the need for him began)? That is inconsistent with a loving and forgiving God, and also inconsistent with an omniscient God.
Then you say:
Or in other words, for all this to make sense to you you have to posit a personal epiphany for everyone…an epiphany that is not described anywhere in Scripture. To me, that just confirms the moral bankruptcy of Christian dogma (and also that you’re probably a very kind and nice person).
FriendofGod, inre the bias of Christian publications:
Okay, maybe the fault lies with me. I will say it again: I have a hard time accepting stories of miracles that are exclusively reported in Christian publications. And I am referring to the ‘got rid of my tumor/blindness/lameness/speech impediment/bothersome in-laws’ type miracle, not the instances which I might consider to be one hell of a coincidence, and Poly would consider a miracle, i.e. the only doctor coming upon the scene of an accident and saving a life. If these instances are really so widespread, then I maintain that some other, more secular, outlet would have picked up on it. And Poly already discussed one instance of Charisma twisting a story to fit their theme. And again, I must recommend that you read the linked article on Almolonga before you attempt to use it as an example again.
Yes, all publications have a certain degree of bias. Some have more than others. I place Christian publications, and especially websites, among those with a higher degree of bias. I don’t necessarily accept anything on face value, so I attempt to find other sources that report on something. In the case of your miracle stories, I found numerous reprints of the same article in English, and more than a few in Spanish. Unfortunately, I cannot translate from work, but the Spanish articles I looked at all seemed to be reprints of something. Two guesses as to what I imagine they were reprinting. You are attempting to turn the discussion away from the alleged miracles that you have claimed are happening everywhere, and toward the bias of publications. That’s the sort of thing I would expect me to do. Not one who is an upright Christian such as yourself.
I didn’t read every single post, so some of the things I say might be redundant.
I have an aunt, who has raised her kids to be extremely devoted to god. One is 18, one is 16, or something around that. Both are very, very religious. They’ve made a vow not to date, because it would ‘interfere’ with their worship of god. Does anyone else find this disturbing? This cultish behavior seems detrimental to me. They have very narrow views, regarding society, and the motives of other people. They automatically assume the worst in people, a trait passed down from their mother. This seems to totally contradict the fundementals of Christianity. Also, these cult churches spread christian propaganda, focusing mainly on the most susceptible of people, children. I once spent the night over there, and they had these tapes that told stories, which would have obscure morals. Anyway, we laid down preparing to sleep, and they played this tape for us, which I assume was played for them every night. The moral of this particular story was; Don’t socialize with non-christians. Disturbing. If I believed in a God, I would think that he would NOT approve of this. Am I the only one that thinks religion should be introduced only after they can make a rational decision? Of course children will believe in God, children believe in Santa Clause. Unfortunately, no one tells them Jesus isn’t real.
Not only do christians judge others harshly, and with no basis, they also harass others, trying to convert them to their religion. All other religions aren’t valid, apparently. It’s the tyranny of the majority.
Christians are, in my opinion, in a state of extreme denial. Try to reason logically with them, and they quote from the Bible, like it’s concrete evidence! Ask them what proof they have that God exists, almost invariably they will say “How was the Universe created?”. Obviously that is a question no one can answer. Faith is not proof!!
Please, a christian please answer this question: how do you know your religion is the ‘right’ one?
Another thing, christians will tell me I will believe in God when I get older. What is the basis of this assumption? I realize I have limited experience in ‘Life’, but come on, don’t insult me like that.
I am not even sure whom you understand at this point, so I must assume that we should continue to try to make ourselves clear.
I suppose God could have made every man perfect, and every life filled with joy and eternal bliss, right from the beginning. Of course I would not be supposing that, had He done so, because that isn’t me I just described, and it probably isn’t you. I don’t find it hard to believe that God found the prospect of a chorus of the same voice repeated a billion times to be lacking in some characteristic He desired. Why God wants us to be seems simple to me. He wants there to be love. To love, we must be free. Really free, not just wrapped in protective wrapping, and set in a special maze to run a predetermined course.
If we must be able to choose, some of us will choose evil. And that means that some of us will die, and be lost forever. But it also means that some of us can grow into new sources of love. I think that is the reason that we are. I see that the world has great sorrow in it. I don’t see it as a trap to torture souls. I see it as the ground out of which souls grow and flower. Life is beautiful. Life is the Love of God, set to grow in the world.
Now I know that you have serious doubts that each and every soul has a fair chance at winning the prize. That seems to be the big stumbling block for you. It has to be fair. But you don’t really mind if it is unfair, only if it is unfair in some aspects. Redemption after a life of sin, and waste is hardly fair, but you haven’t complained about that. Your chief complaint is that you don’t see how God could have Jesus save any of the souls of people who died before He was born.
I don’t know how He does it. I am not worried. I believe that every soul that will be saved shall be saved. It is that simple. I couldn’t do it, but, thankfully, I am not responsible for that. I just have faith. I just have to love. That is my part in this, and can be yours, too.
NICK, a point; not all Christians are the fundamentalist type. Not all believe in the inerrancy of their Holy Book, etc.
There are many varieties of Christians in the world and many good ones here who’ll be happy to explain their viewpoint to you. If you want to hear the Fundamentalist viewpoint, try talking with Fried of God. If you want a more moderate viewpoint, try Polycarp or Tris or Libertarian.
So, please don’t label all Christians as being in a state of extreme denial or harassing others. Some certainly do and I’ve had my fill of them, but please don’t paint them all with that wide tar brush of yours.
Btw, I’m Pagan, not Christian. I also hate to see whole groups of people vilified because of the actions of a few.
Nick, you raise what would be a valid objection if it were not under a totally false paradigm. If I see your basic point right, it amounts to:
This is of course not a direct quote, but is it an accurate summary of your objection?
First, let me recount the traditional church answer regarding the first group: if they lived moral lives, they went after death to a “place of perfect natural happiness” to which Christ came after his death and took them to Heaven. Obviously this leaves out the second group and anybody who didn’t live a moral life in the first group, but it’s a start…
Now, I find the sin/judgment/Heaven-Hell/salvation methodology to be painfully lacking in telling the real story. But I think every Christian on this board, from FoG to Joel to Zion to Jodi to the agnostics and atheists who have studied the Bible out of curiosity, will accept these premises:
God loves all human beings.
His salvation, however, you care to understand it, is by grace, not by anything humans do.
One accepts this salvation in faith.
God is limited by nothing except what he voluntarily chooses to be limited by.
So on a salvationist paradigm, David B., FriendofGod, Eve, Gaudere, GL Wasteful, Andros, JMullaney, Polycarp, Nick, UncleBeer, Triskadecamus, slythe, and everybody else you care to name is saved right now – by his grace. All they need to is say, “go for it.”
On the paradigm Tris. and I have been trying to portray, the question is not one of salvation. It’s his love reaching out, and those who will accept it responding, and those who choose not to accept it rejecting it. And it’s a pretty poor kind of love which insists on clinging (in interactive mode) where it is not reciprocated, though it’s also a pretty poor kind which stops loving (internally) where there’s hope it will someday be reciprocated.
The god I know has no problem with intellectual honesty. If Gaudere, despite my efforts to describe him, cannot accept the idea he is there and loves her, he’s not offended; he understands and loves that about her.
As Tris said, “Anyone who will be saved shall be saved” – I read that as anyone who is willing.
I’m not (necessarily) calling for special revelation, or adherence to the Bible, or “saying the sinner’s prayer,” or getting baptized with the proper formula, or any other gimmickry. He will find a way to reach Gaudere if she is willing to be reached. It may be through me or Tris., it might be through FriendofGod (though I’m not ready to bet large sums on that right at the moment! :)), it might be through special revelation. Heck, she may have an experience where the IPU comes to her in a dream and advises her of the real cosmic pecking order! (Knowing God’s and Gaud’s senses of humor, that one sounds almost likely!) Whatever it takes, he’ll provide.
On the people who choose to go in other directions, I have yet another figment in my “Jesus as Popular Singer” metaphors (which if they do nothing else send several posters into giggling fits!), and it derives from my own observation on reading this that people seem determined to take this question to the limit. Imagine God asking the question from the old Eagles song:.
Quote:
First of all, in response to what I just wrote, it occurred to me that you and others might say, “Well I don’t feel any void right now”. That’s entirely possible, but come back in 20 years and tell me if you don’t feel one. It’s something that builds over time. It’s different for different people. Some don’t fully realize it’s there until the very end of their life, when they realize all the successes they’ve piled up, all the money they’ve made, all the people they’ve helped … it was all for nothing
I don’t know about everyone else but I’m getting real tired of this assupmtion. That my (or anyones) good deeds are worthless, if they’re not based in God. It’s extremely arrogant and rude to invalidate someone elses life and accomplishments because of your belief. And you not only do a disservice to that individual, but their family and anyone they’ve happened to help along the way.
So you know, I was trying to make sense of your post from 8/22 at 11:16 am. Polycarp said that it was a “succinct summary” (aw shucks :o). When I didn’t hear back from you, I assumed that I had it correct.
In your most recent post you said:
IMO, this is reinforcing what you said earlier. Again, your belief says that if we choose God, we can have an eternal life. If we do not choose God (which, BTW, I like better than ‘choosing evil’, as I have not chosen God, and I feel like I’m a pretty ok guy.) we do not have an afterlife, blissful or not.
I really like your interpretation, because, for me, it eliminates the false choice. Using your view, I can rationally make the choice between the upside of eternal bliss versus the downside of simply not existing after death. I am comfortable with the idea of no afterlife, as I don’t believe in an ‘eternal soul’ anyway.
stuffinb: Well, I’m tired of it, but AFAIC, it’s just what FriendofGod believes. And since I don’t share his beliefs, then his prattling means nothing. And as far as the rudeness, well, I’ve not met too many fundamentalists who aren’t rude and arrogant. I sometimes wonder whether they are taught a class in it. If so, then I’m glad that the handful that I’ve known seem to have failed it.
Oh, and FriendofGod? I imagine that I’ll still be around in twenty years, if nothing else, I’ll be waiting for more evidence of miracles. So just drop me a line, I’ll bet you my next paycheck that I’ll still feel the same way. Voidless and testy.
I am not a huge fan of the band Creed. However, this month’s Spin has a cool story about them and their religious roots which still surface quite prominently in the band’s music.
The singer said something which struck a chord with me about his views on the faith his devout Pentecostal parents raised him with.
He said (not an exact quote because i don’t have the story with me), “I would sit in bed asking God to do soemthing small, like turn the light out for me so I wouldn’t have to get up. In knew that testing God was like, blasphemy, but if you do this God, I’ll be the best Christian ever.”
I wonder if anyone else here had similar moments - even among those who still believe in something. We don’t need the room to spin, for the heavens to open up and have it snow in LA in July, or a pot of gold at a rainbow which tastes like Skittles. Really.
Just turn off the light for me.
Yer pal,
Satan
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How can someone “be healed by believing they are being prayed for”?
People report improvements in condition, reduced pain and alleviation of other symptoms when given “medication”, even if the “medication” is a sugar tablet. Belief is a powerful thing, there are interactions between our mental states and our immune systems which are not fully understood.
FoG said: God is not responsible for all aspects of the universe. What He created was perfect. We are the ones who are responsible for screwing up a good thing.
I don’t follow. God is the omnipotent one. If we started with a perfect world, we didn’t and don’t have the power to mess it up with earthquakes and tornadoes and maleria mosquitoes and birth defects. Sure we screwed up, but God decided what the consequences would be. He made the changes to the perfect world, we didn’t have the power to.
I don’t necessarily know that birth defects are one of the consequences of sin as a whole. It may simply be the reality that ‘bad things happen sometimes’. But even if it is, God didn’t “make it so”.
I have no problem with ‘bad things happen sometimes’ because I don’t believe in God. But what you believe seems to me to involve contradictions. You said:- - What He created was perfect. I’ll assume this didn’t involve babies being born unable to breathe properly. Unless… are you saying that our sinning messed up God’s universe somehow in a way which he couldn’t prevent or chose not to prevent? How does this work? If we do a big enough sin, can we make the sun go out?
FoG said: Christianity is not about man being the center of the universe at all! It is about God being the center of the universe and us submitting to Him.
I didn’t say man was the centre of the universe, I said “we are central to the purpose of the universe”, according to most world religions. I stand by that - you yourself said God made us to share His creation with Him. (Which makes us pretty important in the universe really! I mean, all those galaxies and stuff, that’s just there to make pretty lights in our sky, right?)
I can only reiterate what I said - the universe is so enormous, and we occupy such a tiny fraction of it, that I find the idea that we are here to share it with the Creator laughable. As for the idea that the Creator wants us to submit to Him, this seems about as likely as us wanting bacteria to submit to us.
[QUOTE]
**Originally posted by I suppose God could have made every man perfect, and every life filled with joy and eternal bliss, right from the beginning. Of course I would not be supposing that, had He done so, because that isn’t me I just described, and it probably isn’t you. I don’t find it hard to believe that God found the prospect of a chorus of the same voice repeated a billion times to be lacking in some characteristic He desired. Why God wants us to be seems simple to me. He wants there to be love. To love, we must be free. Really free, not just wrapped in protective wrapping, and set in a special maze to run a predetermined course.
If we must be able to choose, some of us will choose evil. And that means that some of us will die, and be lost forever. But it also means that some of us can grow into new sources of love. I think that is the reason that we are.**
This is a question I’ve had after seeing the whole free-will argument hashed out in a number of threads, and if it’s been asked and answered, I’ve missed it. But, whenever someone questions why God had to make us with free will, the answer always revolves around our needing to choose, and when the question is asked “why is there suffering?” the answer always revolves around our needing to experience pain to enjoy its absence. But my question is, then what about the afterlife? Do angels have free will? Will we, as spirits in heaven? Also, is there suffering in heaven? If not, are angels and souls truly happy?
(After much editing, I’ve decided to put the myriad follow-up questions on hold. You’re welcome.)
–Mike
“And over there is where I saw the Leprechaun. He told me to burn things.”
Sorry about the delay in getting back, Lib.
I have read every single post you have written on the topic of love and god. I still say that, no matter how you redefine the word “love” and the word “god”, one is still an emotion and the other a supposed entity. you can say that your god loves, that your god loves everyone, that your god loves unconditionally, that your god loves everybody unconditionally, or even that your god invented the emotion of love. But the term God is Love is a semantical null, no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel.
For the first question, I gotta say “yes”. Satan was a fallen angel. Even though he was in the presence of God, experiencing love and companionship the likes of which you ain’t never seen, and having been created by a perfect deity, and not having knowledge of anything but this wonderful existence, he “chose” to run amuck. Yeah, that makes sense :rolleyes:. I brought up the whole “perfect-deity-creating-imperfect-beings” way back on page 1 or 2 (of part I), and the “we messed it up” argument is flying like a lead balloon.
I’ll leave the other (good) questions to someone else…I’ve been with this thread since what seems like the early 90s, and I’m getting winded.
Yeah, but God learned his lesson after that last little experiment in free will in Heaven. Now everybody who arrives gets a partial lobotomy making them incapable of “choosing” anything but complete love and obedience.
Freyr, I realize i was making generalization’s, but I really meant my experience with Christians. So, I apologize.
I have yet to find a Christian that doesn’t believe the bible is completely infallible. I’m sure some exist, but then wouldn’t they be doubting god? I thought supposedly people wrote the bible under the influence of god. How can a book written(even vicariously) by a supreme being, without flaw, make mistakes?
Polycarp, I think that explanation from “the church” is rather convenient… anyway, that is just one of my objections, but for the purpose of brevity, I won’t list them all I don’t necessarily think spirituality is a bad thing, but why ascribe everything good that happens to god?!
Why thank god because you got a raise at work? I just can’t understand the servile attitude the the bible seems to require you adhere to. If you should thank anyone, it should be yourself.
(Knowing God’s and Gaud’s senses of humor, that one sounds almost likely!) Whatever it takes, he’ll provide.