I find this very interesting. Several members of this board have expressed that if God was proven to exist to them that they would still choose not to follow him and would rather risk the consequences that would entail.
This seems to go against human nature in the extreme. We all seem to have an ingrained instinct to survive and a desire to exist in the best possible circumstances. How then can you choose to go to hell if God was proven to you to be all that the bible says? Even if you don’t agree with everything in the bible, or everything he has allegedly done; isn’t heaven the only choice a sane person would make?
If God was proven to exist to me, and I thought that the after-life would be infinitely better for me by following him…I’d be first in line. God could even be evil and I’d still choose him over an existance in hell if I thought I wouldn’t be punished or tortured as in hell. I think it just comes down to basic self-preservation.
FTR, until proven otherwise, I’ll just have to be content to fertilize mother earth with my carcass one day.
As I wrote in another thread, I’ve no doubt I would lick the boots of the divine tyrant if the choice was between that and an eternity in hell. Of course, since he’s omniscient and all and would know what I would really think about him, there’s no way I could avoid the eternal barbecue.
Hey, not everybody is a hero, like Satan, who had the balls to walk the walk despite knowing what would be the consequences for him
I’d follow him, too, given the fire-and-brimstone conceptiosn of hell (and othre torturous descriptions). After all, that is why I don’t constantly prod myself with needles: it hurts and my life would suck if I did that!
Some people choose to stand behind their morals instead of choosing self-preservation.
If the god of the fundamentalists is the real, all-powerful god of the universe, and not just a fiction made up to scare the gullible into sending money to toll-free numbers, then he is not worthy of my worship, no matter what he threatens me with.
I don’t believe it’s against human nature; history is full of people who have knowingly sacrificed themselves for their principles, in defiance of an authority that they considered immoral.
My attitude is this:
If God exists, he certainly doesn’t seem to be doing a lot. He’s omnipotent, right? So why doesn’t he wipe out the Ebola virus? Or AIDS? Or stop a few earthquakes here and there? Or, what the hell, put us all in Paradise from the get-go?
No, we have this seventy-year, give or take, audition for Paradise. And it doesn’t come down to “doing the right thing” or “loving thy neighbor” or even “trying not to kill anyone.” It just comes down to the last minute, where you get the chance to say, while confronted with the prospect of damnation, “I was wrong and I’m sorry and I love you, God.”
That’s it? That’s the requirement? I’ve lived a life wherein I did mostly good works because I wanted to improve society, and not because an invisible omnipotent presence told me to, and I get to go to Hell? It may be short-sighted, but I still have to say, “Screw that noise. Send me downstairs.”
My attitude is, if God exists, AS DEPICTED IN THE BIBLE, no thanks. If God exists and is really okay, great. The bible doesn’t depict a particularly nice tolerant deity. So I’d pass on going that way, because after all, I don’t believe in it, and if it is as depicted, I’m doomed anyway, so I’ll go out with head held high.
My reasons are the same, erislover. I’m not religious because I don’t see any evidence that they’re right.
However, if it was proven to me that they were right, I’d have to decline the opportunity to worship an all-powerful being which exhibited the behavior that the fundamentalists credit their deity with.
Well I think that you are being pretty presumptuous. If Yahweh were to go on TV or something and make it clear he was really real then that would sort of give credence to all of the other gods rather than the reverse. Who knows Larry King might do a series. This week Yahweh, next week Lugh and the week after Krishna. Maybe we could even do televised debates.
No. Personally I would choose reincarnation. I like the idea of distilling my essence through the flame of life and would choose that over any description of heaven I have ever heard.
Well see now you have made a second condition. If your god were proven to exist AND you thought . . . etc. THEN you would follow him. Well you are still basing your decision on the BELIEF that he is honest. A trait that he is not know for in your book.
So you see even a personal appearance would not win me over.
I like the way an old friend of mine put it: “If you go to heaven, you spend eternity singing the praises of God. If you go to hell, you spend eternity being tortured. Either way, you’re bored shitless.”
Well, if God was proven to you to exist as in the Bible, that pretty much rules out any other possible god doesn’t it.
Like I said above, if God was proven to you, you’d only have two choices…and one of them isn’t reincarnation.
Who said it was my book? I don’t see how you say I made a second condition. His word is basically that heaven is good and hell is bad. If he actually made himself known to me, I think a little trust on my part might be in order.
So far we have stankow and MrVisible saying they would choose hell over following God. I must say, your personal convictions are admirable. You’re right, people have sacraficed themselves in the past for their beliefs. But how many did so with the knowledge that they would spend an eternity in hell? I imagine that most people probably thought they were serving their god, didn’t believe in god, or were mentally deficient if they chose to martyr themselves under such circumstances.
Look at it this way. What is the worst thing you can imagine? Maybe someone raping and mutilating your family? Would you honestly choose that over an existance in heaven? Obviously I’m being presumptuous again supposing that hell is not a nice place.
How the heck does that follow? There are all sorts of other gods mentioned in the bible. The injunction is that you shouldn’t take them before Yahwey not that they don’t exist.
That’s nuts. I wouldn’t just have two choices any more than I do now. I can choose to follow any god there is or none. The fact that one god shows up in person in no way invalidates any other god.
(Bolding mine)
Hense your second condition. Because he showed up you feel obliged to trust him. I wouldn’t.
Interesting, I didn’t think the bible validated any other gods as existing; but instead taught not to worship false gods. Maybe time to read that book again. If God created the heavens and the Earth…blah blah blah; where does that leave room for other gods? Unless you think he’s just full of himself and really only a co-creator or no creator at all.
I don’t currently believe in the Christian God, but if I became convinced that he was the “true” God, yeah, I’d follow him. I don’t agree with all his stances, but I think the basis of his philosophy (at least in the NT) is pretty much “be nice to people”, so I can live with a few quibbles. Now if I was wholeheartedly opposed to him, would I worship him, just to save my ass in the afterlife? Sure. I’d rather spend my afterlife as a hypocrite than a charcoal briquette. And it’s not like my hypocricy would be hurting anyone, anyway.
As far as all those people throughout the ages who have sacrificed themselves for their principles… umm, they tend to be religious, don’t they? Which means they believe in afterlife? Which means they’re not really sacrificing much, right? Yeah, they shrug off the mortal coil a little early, but then they’re off to an all-expense paid trip to heaven, where the benefits range from a cool set of wings to a lifetime supply of virgins, depending on your specific beliefs. Somehow, trading persecution and hardship for paradise doesn’t seem all that noble. Not to downplay the goodness of their actions, or anything (in cases where “goodness” applies), but let’s put this in perspective, shall we?
Maybe, but I’d rather be bored in an easychair than bored with a white-hot sewing needle in my eyeball.
Jeff
Ever consider that the Bible might be a test? If God did exist, and asks you if killing all those babies in the flood was right, perhaps an answer of “yes” sends you to hell. Any god I would want to
stay with would want people to stand up to evil, no matter where it came from.
Interesting how though theists use moral relativism as an argument against atheism, fundamentalists justifying the Bible’s atrocities are the biggest relativists of them all.
You know, Rug Burn, the god you’re describing is a thug and an extortionist.
“Worship me or spend an eternity in hell” is not a way to inspire people to worship you; it’s a way to force people to. I don’t take well to being forced. I don’t give my respect on demand. I give out my respect to those who have earned it. And that model of god is pretty despicable.
I’m not saying I’m some paragon of virtue; many, many people have gone to painful deaths for their beliefs. Every foot soldier in every war is risking death, and worse, for something they believe in. And no, not all of them were religious, thank you very much.
Now, if a benevolent god came out of hiding, and apologized for all the pain and misery the world had suffered, and explained why it was all necessary, and relieved as much of that suffering as possible, and proved that he was worthy of worship, I’d be all over that action. I’d be singing hosannas at the top of my lungs. I’d be doing overtime polishing harps.
But Goddo the Enforcer saying “Worship me! Or go to hell!” is gonna get an attempt at a swift kick to the groin out of me. And nothing else.
Just out of interest; does anyone really (outside of the works of Mr Chick) actually choose to follow God entirely on the basis that if they don’t, they will fry? I find this a terribly bleak prospect (and in fact I sincerely doubt if one could truly give one’s heart to God that way).
Are any of the Christians here on the board motivated this way? don’t be shy…
All of which raises the question of just what I have to do to “follow God” that I’m not doing already in an attempt to lead a productive and ethical life?
If it requires taking advantage of the simple minded—as seem to be the primary activity of the more prominent God-followers on cable TV—or taking a high handed and judgmental attitude toward the rest of the population—the position of all too many semi-pro Christians—then I’m not sure my self-respect would permit it, or if it did, that an omniscient God would not see it and shove me off with the hypocrites bound for the most hellish corner of Hell.
And,Rug Burn, who are you to be in a position to tell me or anyone what the Almighty requires? I withdraw the question.
