Lib, could you just once ignore misspellings and hurt feelings, and maybe actually answer the poor man’s question? I’m not saying don’t comment on his style of writing, but answer him also.
Dr Lao
You are on your own moral journey. Your consciousness is a closed reference frame, as is mine. We cannot experience one another’s.
Whatever might eventually happen to you simply has not happened yet from the perspective of your reference frame.
“You never know what’s around the corner.” — Lib’s sainted mother.
From Reality, reprinted here for your convenience:
quote:
It seems to me that many people are a bit too attached to their axioms.
Agreed! I learned that very thing about myself only recently, thanks mostly to Spiritus Mundi.
The science epistemology is of great interest nowadays because of its ability to make rather mundane atomic groupings into rather spectacular atomic groupings (the technology end), as well as its ability to make itself repeatable (the experimentation end). The former, the technology, is merely quaint, and is no different metaphysically from the miracle epistemology. But the latter is more irritating to most theistic apologists who react like deer in the headlights when atheists demand repeatability of their claims about God.
“You say you did such-and-such and found God. Well, I did such-and-such, too, but I did not find God.”
Frustrating. Until you recognize it for what it is, a distraction fallacy. You want repeatability about my experiences with God? Fine, then. Be me. Your measuring machines with their gauges afford you repeatability because if I make a machine the same way you made yours, it will behave the same way in the same circumstance. Your repeatability won’t work if I make a machine that is merely taxanomically similar to yours but fails in its design to do what yours does.
If you are to find God (assuming such a desire), then you must do so using the hand dealt to you: your own consciousness, a reference frame that is closed to me and to everyone else.
Slythe, Kevals
As you wish. I will devote my next post to answering the gentleperson’s questions. Perhaps you might consider next time taking the same approach you advocate on behalf of hand-stabbing Atheists to hell-fire Christians whom you consider disrespectful and abrasive?
Libertarian, seriously, I’m a nice guy. I would do anything to help anyone and I am never rude to anyone usually even after they’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty to be extremely rude to me. I’ve been online since around 1991, starting out on local bulliten boards and over the years i’ve ran into alot of people (i mean ALOT) online that just think im a real rude person without getting to know me. I’ve never really had this happen in real life but i guess it’s just the way i word myself or something. Like i said, im not all that well-versed. I hope i havent pissed you off too bad. Im still waiting for anyone to answer any of my questions though.
Listen Lib, I’m a nice person, i really am, i would do anything I could to help anyone I met and I am rarely ever rude to anyone, even usually when they go above and beyond the call of duty to be rude to me. I’ve been online since around 1991 and through all those years ive had ALOT of people regard me just like you do before they get to know me. I guess like i said im just not a very well versed person, if you heard me say the same thing in person you would probably think totally differently about me. Sorry if i came off as rude and disrespectful to you, i honestly dont mean it.
WHOOPS, i re-typed that because it didnt go through the first time, these boards really are screwy sometimes arent they?
Cisco
I suppose it was when the hose blew out on our washing machine.
I drink only very rarely, and the last time I did, wine was already available.
I would be satisfied to make you see.
By juxtaposing the analogous parts of speech.
Because they are both technologies.
Little critters in test tubes.
And yet, nevertheless…
But you have insisted. (c.f. “did you even bother to read what i wrote?”)
I have insufficient data to speculate on how many would do that.
Oh.
I don’t know.
Insufficient data. I don’t think of it either way.
I think that is for God to say.
I don’t know.
Maybe they were polite.
Maybe they were mean.
According to Joseph Smith, He liked the Aztecs.
Hard to say from my perspective. I’m not a Bible Thumper.
The flaws in your logic? Oy veh.
Funny. Pointing out false dilemmas and other fallacies are a hallmark of Atheists when they deal with Pascal’s Wager and Lewis’s Dichotomy.
Maybe people see things however they intend to see them.
Some people do see them.
Not really, and here’s why.
I’m not who or what you think I am. I’m not a Bible Tumper. I am not qualified (as you can see) to answer your questions. Perhaps you could ask them of Friend of God.
Lastly,
Have you ever thought you stumbled onto Cousin Bill while on your vacation half-way around the world, only to find out that it was someone else?
I suppose time will tell whether you get to know me for who I really am. After nearly a year, I am still trying to unpin myself from the god Slythe has pinned on me. Perhaps you will be more attuned.
Hang around, and let’s see if we can be friends.
I know I wasn’t asked, but let me throw my ten cents in.
First, on Old Testament exegeses of the “What was Pharaoh supposed to think?” school – I feel that the entire OT is an attempt to get a clearer understanding of God. Parts of it are therefore about as morally uplifting as your random Harlequin romance or Norse myth. Pharaoh was, in the view of the Hebrew writer, supposed to let the Hebrews go, because he was supposed to recognize that the Hebrew God was the one true god, to be obeyed at all costs. Am I defending this point of view? No. But you need to take it into account in reading the story. Did God love Pharaoh, and offer him salvation? On my view, yes, long afterwards. On the traditionalist view, I wouldn’t bet your last camel on it.
Regarding miracles: Hey, it would be nice to be able to change the world at will to make it “better” in my opinion. The point is, my opinion does not control. The Christian, per se, has no more command of miracles than anybody else. He does have at his disposal God’s ability to pass a miracle when He wants one done. The trick is to know when it’s His will.
I’ve only been the instrument for a couple in my life, and the subject of one. They were all “Miracles of Convergence” and would not stand up to skeptical scrutiny. But here are two:
[li](Told before) In 1989 we met the cousin, who lived a half kilometer away, of a neighbor’s son. Both were in their mid-teens. My wife and I felt a very strong urge to befriend the cousin, and did so. A year later, I was at home (last day of a vacation week, my wife having returned to work) and suffered a heart attack. Onset of attack was just before 3:00 PM. Wife left work at 4:00, due to go to a rehearsal at church and stop at the grocery store before getting home about 6:30-7:00. Kid, in response to his own inner urging, stopped by just before 5:00, found me in severe pain but conscious, gray and in evident distress, ran and called the church, got my wife to rush home, and she got me to the hospital. I recovered in fairly good shape – another two hours would have either killed or incapacitated me. Coincidence? God’s hand at work? You be the judge – we all believe the latter.[/li][li]Five years later. In the interim, we had become informal foster parents to neighbor’s son, cousin, and cousin’s best friend. Cousin’s best friend has married neighbor’s daughter. All have grown up, started their own adult lives, remain in close contact and friendship. Daughter contacts us; marriage is very much on the rocks. Best friend is now my closest friend. We talk to both parties. I feel a sense of being given what to say and do to help them through this. We play out a separation and reconciliation scene. I act in accord with what I’ve been “told” to do. Marriage is repaired and is now very strong. Subconscious gestalt of what will accomplish the ends I’m working for? “Word of knowledge” from God? I was sure asking Him for one.[/li]
Like I said, I can see where any skeptic could see alternate explanations – I’ve posted a couple. But for me they were miracles.
Slythe, while we’re calling people’s attention to things, I asked you for your insight into a Christian metaphor in the second post in this thread. I’m not trying to play conversion games with it; I sincerely want to know what you read into that story and how it fits with your expectations of evidence. (Obviously, I don’t expect you to buy the “spiritual vision” thing – but I’m sure there are alternate explanations of the story that you may have better insight into than I do, given our different perspectives.)
Poly, I guess it all goes back to what Lib is always talking about when he talks about reference frames. Seeing a loving God at work in your life, you’re inclined to view those occurrences, and their outcomes, as miracles of His doing.
I have a similar story, from just recently. Last Tuesday, I started a thread in the Pit relating the crappy week I was having. In it, I mentioned two things. One was that I suddenly had to replace all four tires on my car. As it happens, that same day, our bicycles were stolen. The amount of the renter’s insurance check covering the bikes was nearly exactly what we paid for the tires. Also, I had had to send my former landlord a large check for some carpet replacement costs. Yesterday, I received a bonus check at work which, when combined with a raise that kicked in on this week’s pay, was nearly exactly double what I sent my ex-landlord.
You would probably see these as the “miracles of convergence” you discuss. I, not being a praying man 
, see them as fortuitous coincidences. It’s all in the reference frames, and I don’t think yours is any less valid than mine, or vice versa.
Okay, and thanks. Meanwhile, I’ll pray that God gives you and Peta, David and family, Slythe and family, and Gaudere many more “fortuitous concidences.” Not to prove anything, just because I love you and so does he.
Phil
Great example!
And by the way, congratulations on all your good fortune! It could not happen to a greater guy!
What would I find if I was seeking Claudia Schiffer?
Seriously though, to prove the existance of God would cost me my faith. That would be too great of a price.
Libertarian wrote:
Uh, I think a canal is kinda the “opposite” of parting the sea.
Polycarp wrote:
Hmmm …
“I am the Lord your God. I created your from the dust of the Earth. I hold the destiny of the Universe in my hands. And I hereby exercise my omnipotence to grant you … a check from your renter’s insurance.”
Not a very impressive god, is he?
Hey, omnipotence means he can handle the small stuff too!
Note to Libertarian-I’m sorry if there was a question you asked that I played cute word games with instead of answering. Mind repeating it?
As far as the Christian metaphor in the second post goes-Polycarp, I believe that you don’t play conversion games with people and if I ever hinted as such, I apologize. The trouble with metaphors is, there happens to be one for every opinion and every occasion. As such, while they might be helpful in explaining an opinion, they are next to useless when it comes to finding fact, which is what I usually base my proof-seeking (see title of thread) on. Though I firmly believe that the OP of this thread was merely a deceptive ruse with the purpose of gathering unbelievers in one spot for the purpose of conversion, I will yet again answer it. If you want to prove to me that the god of the Bible exists, than show me the the god that appears in the Bible. The hand that writes, the great miracles, the burning bush, the angels, etc.
Note that if a mere spiritual feeling were enough, any religion(and some movies) would suffice. You want to promote the best of the best when it comes to a god? Show me!
Just a chuckle, sort of at slythe’s expense (though I think he’ll find it as funny as I do)… 
The OP of this thread was Gaudere. Now while it’s obvious to initiates that she is secretly in league with the theists to promote drive-by conversions, I didn’t think you moderators were making that sort of thing public.
Now, the OP of the first thread… There you may have a point. Although from my experience of FoG, he does not realize how annoying to you and others who are not activist Christians his posting style is/was, and was sincerely interested in finding out what people expected by way of proof – with the hope he could then dredge out that proof and lead people to Christ based on it, I’m sure. But honestly, given his beliefs and motives, isn’t that a reasonable thing for him to want to do? (That’s rhetorical, and I’m not asking whether it’s annoying, or futile – just whether you can grasp and accept his motives.)
Laugh at me, will ya?
You are entirely right, of course-I was refering to the first OP.