That’s just silly. By the same argument, many apostates all over the world have had it proven to them in some way that God DOESN’T exist. So what does that prove about whether he actually does or not? Truth is not shaped by democracy, and sincere belief by a group of people in the interpretation of a personal experience carries NO argumentative force whatsoever, as I tried to describe at more length in my last post.
Now this, and really most of your post, is downright irritating; you’re ignoring the etiquette of the board: You are in the wrong forum for such straightforward proselytizing. These “points” have nothing to do with proving God to an atheist on their own terms, the debate you were ostensibly starting. I put real thought into my answer and you’re completely ignoring the points I offered in order to just preach the same standard old line we’ve all heard a thousand times; trying to demonstrate the existence of God by showing what a swell bunch Christians are (a dubious enough assertion on its own).
Show me a medical miracle that demonstrably defies physical law, and is not merely the everyday expression of human ignorance about the complexity of the human body, and I’ll believe if it meets the requirements I outlined in my last post. For that matter, show me that spontaneous remissions and “miraculous” recoveries happen to the devout statistically more often than to nonbelievers.
And PLEASE stop preaching, or at least drop the approach that Christians are a less bigoted, self-centered, arrogant, petty, contentious, vengeful, warlike, avaricious, hapless, and misguided crew than the rest of the world’s human clay. I have eyes, you know, and it has nothing to do with the existence of God anyway.
You just described the best way in the world to turn your spirit over to some worldly leader, or cult that knows how to put on a good show. You want to find the spirit of God, you look for the spirit in the way someone lives, not in the way they publicly profess their religion. How loudly, how often, or how well you preach has nothing to do with God. That is a matter of earthly passions.
Tattoo this on your forehead, Friend, so you will have a ready prompt to dissuade you from self-aggrandizement. “Hi, I am a Christian, don’t follow me.”
Christians are not better than non-Christians. Those professing Christian faith may or may not have faith in Christ. He knows which are which, and no one else is entitled to an opinion. People who make much of their own circle of friends being true Christians are blatantly stating that they are able to make that judgment. So by the measure of their own judgment they choose to receive judgment. I prefer mercy.
Receive each soul in the world with compassion, and love. The state of their soul is not in your charge, nor is the judgment of their spirit. I am moved again to great distress with you, and must make amends for what I think of you. Be faithful to Him! He has not given to you the task of Salvation. Tend the fruits of your life, and let those alone speak of your faith. The Lord will know.
Pray alone, in the darkness, shut away from the world, so that you and the Lord may speak privately. Give that same respect to every sinner in the world.
I’m sorry if you took it that way APB. I read every word of your post and thought it was indeed very well thought out. As I said this was a summary as I didn’t have the time earlier tonite (nor do I now) to do my usual point for point comments. I hope to be able to do that in the next few days. I wasn’t ignoring you, sorry if it sounded that way!
You said:
cough
They’ve pretty much restricted me to here APB, sorry!
Again, sorry if you felt that I didn’t respect your points. I just scanned over them again and found them interesting. I hope to comment more specifically soon.
How do you feel when
[li]an Atheist refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business deal…[/li]
In college where I studied Physics we had a pathological Christian student (note: not to imply all Christians are crazy, just this one was) who followed women around trying to convert them and get them to go out with him. My favorite moment was when he saw he was getting an abysmal grade in some typically challenging high-level physics course and said in earshot of a good 15 people “As a Christian, I can’t bring myself to cheat. All these others who are doing so well don’t have that burden.” I would have argued with him if I didn’t already realize how wacked the guy was.
When you imply that only Christians don’t lie (and you did, just not as blatantly as my former classmate) you insult me and make me less likely to want to look at the purity of your heart to find truth.
[/quote]
[li]an Atheist does not peep in the open locker-room window, but instead goes around the the fully-dressed attendent to let her know of the open curtain…[/li]
Many is the time in college when women would ask me to turn around while they got naked. I respected their wishes for privacy, no God had to tell me how to be a decent human.
[/quote]
[li]an Atheist goes through a terrible tragedy, and still embraces life and makes a point of finding things to make life worth living and support others suffering at the same time.[/li]
Personally, I don’t understand the “I’m miserable, but God must have a better plan” attitude. I would not have been able to deal with my tragedies if I had a God to blame for them. When a plane crashes and not one child survives, was it “God’s will?” My father-in-law is a Lutheran pastor (yes, I know, not quite Christian enough for you) and hates when people say things like that.
[/quote]
So, Friend, what say you? Does observing an ethical Atheist suddenly disprove God to you?
I agree completely with that assertion. “Proof” requires a tautology set in an illusion. God is real, and therefore cannot be proven.
In the first place, God has conclusively demonstrated His existence, at least to me. But since apprehension is a subject phenomenon, born in the brain, His existence must be demonstrated differently for each of us. But, “the last shall be first and the first last”.
Even the hardball atheist must admit that God exists at least conceptually, in the same way that truth exists (otherwise, the hardball atheist is quite deeply into shadow boxing). Loving God is not like loving the wife you are married to; it is like loving the wife you are promised to — whom you have never seen, but have only heard about. You have love letters from her, but that is all.
The final decision (that is, the one that spans the whole continuum) is made when we see Him face to face. Instantly, we will judge ourselves and either run to Him or run away.
Your statement here reminds me of the final few scenes of the movie “Dogma.” Bartleby, a “fallen angel,” has spent the entire movie alternately angry at God, lonely for God’s company, and finally rebelling and attempting to fool and wage war on God. When, in the final scene, he is confronted with God (Alanis Morrissette!), he immediately breaks into tears, apologizes and seeks forgiveness.
It would be great if that really happened. But it doesn’t.
I’m an atheist, but although i often find Christians trying to convert me annoying, i never find them offensive.
Because according to their beliefs if you don’t believe in God, you are forsaken to hell, and they don’t want that for you.
The people that i really don’t like are Christians that ‘sin’. They treat their religion like a hobby, when it’s supposed to be a way of life. Hey, if i believed that stuff i would live my life in complete celibacy (just in case) and become a priest for a surefire way to heaven, where i’ll spend eternity and that’s a pretty long time.
But alas, i’ll probably spend my afterlife as an unpleasant smelling corpse.
And a even a minor knowledge of psychology can explain why people in God, afterlife, and whatnot despite the fact it makes little sense.
Y’know, I don’t want anything bad to happen to you. I sincerely hope that you will be happy with the rest of your life. No matter what. And I’m an atheist. So, how does my response fit in with your world view?
And many is the time that I hav. . .ahh, to hell with it. I can’t type that and keep a straight face. Friend, if your faith has made you immune to the charms of women, then I feel really sorry for you. Newsflash! Sometimes women would like to be observed. Not ogled at, or slobbered on, or fondled (as my PO has told me time and time again), but not necessarily ignored, either.
Well, speaking only for myself, all thanks. It’s always nice to be recognized, especially by one so much better than a simple atheist such as myself. Again, I sincerely hope that your life is at least as fulfilling as you want it to be. But if you’re here hoping to convince some atheists that your way is The Right Way, and rack up a score that will impress your God, it won’t happen. You are neither the first, nor the most annoying, nor, I imagine, the last to try.
In my experience, lonely and confused people will join a religious group because the people are nice to them and do not judge them. This is not proof, per se. They are not feeling God’s love - they are feeling the love of the religious people for them. This is simply a case of a person who wants to belong somewhere finding somewhere to belong.
Well, the criteria of proof for these people are obviously different from the criteria required for us.
Well, I hate mind games. If God is going to send me to hell for unbelief, he ought to do more on his part. And here is a question often asked by nonbelievers - what about people who live in extremely isolated areas not visited by missionaries? How do they know to seek for God?
Well, I know a lot of Buddhists who also behave in a saintly manner. Are you ready to become a Buddhist?
The fact that there are “good” Christians and “bad” Christians merely proves they are human like everyone else.
I have to say something in response to this. I happen to live in a country where religion is slowly but surely loosing its grip… Japan. Currently the population has a majority of atheist. Probably because of the Shinto religion which brought them to death and destruction during WW2.
However and whatever the reason may be, I have never met so many atheists as I have in Japan…. And I have never met more honest people. If you drop your wallet in the street you stand a good chance of recovering it with all your cash remaining.
I think in the west if someone found a wallet full of cash it may be considered “A gift from God”, whereas the Japanese would think, “this belongs to some poor fellow”.
I am not saying Japanese honesty is based on the lack of religion. It is obviously a cultural aspect. But to say only Christians are honest just irritates me.
First off, welcome. Don’t know if you’ve already been welcomed but I guess it’s my turn.
Secondly, I would not be in too much of a rush painting Japanese culture as more honest than Western culture. We’ve all got our demons. As I recall, Japan has pretty much insitutionalized denial of certain attrocities to such an extent that school history books have been rewritten to avoid bringing up the subject. So please don’t be overly quick to judge others on these terms.
I don’t think I said the Japanese were angels. Although I am not surprised to get this kind of reaction.
I think my post clearly mentioned that the new Japanese atheists, is a result of the war and destruction brought upon them by the Shinto religion.
As for Japanese denials in their history books. It is very true and something I disagree with, yet I forget 50 yen change in the coke machine and next thing I find is some fellow chasing me down to give my change back. I’d be the first one to point out the Japanese problems, but honesty is not one of them.
If you think that the war of 50 odd years ago is a mirror of Japanese society today, then you really need to pay a visit.
Still I guess you may have a point, I hate the French and Napoleon is to blame.
What?? How is it supernatural? The items you listed below are hardly going to prove some supernatural love.
Doing the above listed things doesn’t show anything about being a christian. The above things are moral, and are done by many moral people of many religons around the world.
Well, sure, Jack. But according to Friend of God, those people, despite their own beliefs, aren’t Christians. 'Fact, anyone who doesn’t believe as he does is not a Christian.
I’m an agnostic. I can’t see how any logical person could be an atheist.
I don’t know whether god exists or not. I doubt he/she does. But I know for a fact that it is impossible to know for certain that he/she does not exist. Hence, atheism is a belief system just like any other. It requires faith in your own feeling that god does not exist.
Now, what would I accept as motivation to change my beliefs to a more god-friendly paradigm?
1 - Direct, personal communication with god on a repeatable basis.
2 - Witness of (1) above, by other people than myself, to rule out psychosis.
3 - An explanation, directly from god, as to his “mysterious ways.” In other words, satisfying answers to the following questions:
a) Why do bad things happen to good people?
b) Why did you make potato bugs so ugly?
c) Can you make a rock you can’t lift? If not, why?
d) Why have you allowed so many horrific acts to be performed in your name?
4 - Proof that this god does not maintain his own personal torture chamber (Hell) for people who don’t toe the line. This would invalidate any other proof.
I prefer not to highjack this thread so if you want to start a new topic about Japanese culture vs Western culture morals then be my guest.
Let me just say that 50 years is not a very long time. Certainly not long enough to erase the wounds inflicted by Japanese aggression during the second world war. Japan has it’s share of surviving victims much like the survivor’s of Nazi aggression. 50 yen from a coke machine does not erase the pain caused in the recent past.
I don’t want to make it seem that I don’t believe you, I just don’t want you to delude yourself into thinking that a returned wallet somehow makes up for past wrongs. It’s not that easy my friend. Not for anyone in this world. Japan is certainly not the exception to the rule.