Scupper, no one can prove the nonexistence of God. Atheists accept this. They do, however, based on the complete lack of any factual basis for belief, place the liklihood of God’s existence about on a par with pixies, the Tooth Fairy, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Bear in mind also, that there is a difference between people who believe there is no God (as you say, faith), and those who do not believe in God. It’s a subtle difference, but you’ll find that the vast majority of atheists are of the latter stripe. It’s not a faith in nonexistence, it’s a lack of faith in existence. Make sense?
Well, I think God would have a hard time logging on here, but I’ll take a shot.
Well, that is an awfully vain desire. God doesn’t care much for vanity.
There is none good but god. If you are united in spirit to God, what bad things could possibly happen?
They evolved.
You seen God lifting any rocks lately? Spiritual being here. Rumors of omnipotence greatly exagerated.
Humans have free will. Get used to it.
God has no choice, but in the interest of justice, to allow people to go to hell if they so choose. I personally don’t think this is God’s fault: since hell is separate from him, if you die separate from him, you must end up there if there is a there there.
You should not take my example of Japanese honesty as if I am devoted to the Japanese. I used that example only to prove my point, which was that Christians are not the only honest people walking on earth.
As for the 50 years, I agree it is not a long time and yes there are still people who have memories of the Japanese atrocities. I remember meeting an old Englishman who suffered terribly in a Japanese POW camp in Singapore. I’ve also met an old Japanese woman who is to this day disfigured from the Hiroshima atom bomb and who has been battling cancer for many years. I’ve met an old Japanese man who lost his parents to American flamethrowers on Saipan, as he watched. I’ve met an old Korean man who was forced to Japan to work in an arms factory as a slave laborer and who saw fellow Koreans killed in an American air raid. I’ve met an old Chinese man who told me about the Japanese arrival in Shanghai and the ensuing slaughter. I’ve met survivors of German concentration camps. I’ve met American, Australian and Korean Vietnam Vets who still don’t know what business they had there, and I have met Vietnamese who remember the horrors of that war. To this day my father hates Germans from the day they occupied his native Copenhagen. (He has interesting stories from those days). Point is I have only ever met the victims regardless of what side they were on. IMHO war has absolutely nothing to do with culture. You want to discuss Japanese culture vs. Western culture as it is today; I would be more than happy to do so, although I think you find me very critical of many aspects of Japanese culture. However, if you bring in the “war”, then I would have to decline the discussion because war has nothing to do with culture. Any and all cultural renaissance, have been during times of peace. Never during times of war.
I don’t know how old you are or if you were a victim of WW2. If you were, I fully sympathize with you and I know it would not matter how much I were to tell you about Japan today for you will keep your hatred to the grave. If however, you are younger and speak of this purely out opinion, then you offend me with your remark about my deluding myself. What do you know?
Since you are in daily contact with the SBOTU (Supreme Being Of The Universe), please pass along these suggestions to improve his Nielsens:
[ol]
[li]Weekly press conferences. He has to show up personally, in what ever visible form He thinks would be most impressive; no sending in the third string, like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. He would field questions like “Why do bad things happen to good people?” or “If you created the Universe, who created You?”[/li]
[li]A program on the Fox Channel. I’m thinking along the lines of “World’s Most Amazing Miracles” or “When Deities Attack”, a show that would document in unambiguous terms his ability to contravene the laws of physics through acts of mercy or vengeance.[/li]
[li]A permanent show at Caesar’s Palace in Las Vegas; two shows daily, three on Fridays and Saturdays. Heal the sick, comfort the afflicted and affict the comfortable. Then, take it on the road three weeks a year; put that heavenly power to some real, direct good on earth besides creating flowers and sunsets.[/li]
[li]Let the Cubs win the World Series.[/li][/ol]
Now, FoG, if you think this post is arrogant, pointless and annoying, you have some idea what I feel about your OP.
jmullaney: Forgive me here, but why did you go off on Scupper? He was answering the OP - what it would take for him (or her) personally to prove the existance of God.
Where do you get off criticizing what a person sets as criteria here? A person makes their own crriteria up, and I’ll bet your criteria isn’t right for everyone either.
You can comment about how God doesn’t work that way, and as such that person will never realize this, but it is not up to you to make a person and God shake hands, it’s up to them.
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Four months, 21 hours, 6 minutes and 25 seconds.
4915 cigarettes not smoked, saving $614.40.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 3 days, 1 hour, 35 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!*[/sub]
WELL! That’s what I get for waiting another 24 hours to respond. Now I have twice as much to respond to.
Here’s what I’ll do and I hope everyone will grant me a little mercy. Last time I checked, I’m still just one person with only two hands and I can’t go on all night. So it’s time once again for … Marathon Responses! Havent done this since somewhere in the middle of ‘Christianity and Love Part 2’. And if you think it’s silly … you’re right, it is :D. I will start from the beginning of page 1 and work my way down, not responding to every post but trying to hit the highlights of most of them.
And we’re off! Zooming down the track, here’s a quote from Ben:
You later added to this by saying:
Your main point is darn good logic Ben. It actually warms my heart to know you believe this.
I have a question for you. First of all, you said the description of what Yahweh/Jesus demands is too incoherent for you to follow what you’re supposed to believe. Would you geuninely be interested in a simplified summary that would answer this concern? I won’t give it unless you ask, but it’s not as complicated as it sometimes sounds.
Also, I absolutely love that you believe that a religion can’t be relativistic and that God must be good. I would submit to you that Christianity definately offers this.
… round the corner, here comes … oldscratch:
I would have to somewhat agree with this notion too. I’ve never known someone who came to Christ without realizing the hopelessness of life without Him …
… and now on to …
jb_farley:
I would have to disagree that there’s no way to tell. Let me give you one example. I personally know of no way for a person to change their own desires. You can change your actions and that can sometimes lead to a change of desire, but just changing your desires can’t be done (ie, suppose you desire to eat a bucket of chocolate ice cream. You can choose not to eat it, but the desire is there. Maybe if you don’t eat it every time you’re tempted, the desire will wane eventually).
Anyway, my point is … God can change your desires. He’s done it to me countless times. He doesn’t do it unless I ask, but if I ask … all I can say is WOW. I’ve literally been left with my jaw dropped open at the sudden shift in my own attitude, for no reason other than God answering my prayer.
Example: I REALLY want to eat chocolate ice cream, I ask God to take the desire away, and boom … suddenly I have NO desire whatsoever! And I did nothing to change my attitude! God answered a prayer and changed me.
That’s just one of many examples, but I hope it’s something to chew on …
… right there next to jb is Dr. J! Hi Dr. J :). … You said:
I agree with the whole sentence except the word “inexplicable”. I might be misunderstanding what you mean, but if you mean something along the lines of “mysterious”, “impossible to understand”, etc etc then I would disagree.
Coming to Christ for me was simply seeing the simple logic of Christianity and accepting it for what it was. For many people you have to go through a lengthy process of coming to terms with your own sinfulness before coming to Christ. But in the end, yes it’s an incredible experience…but it’s based on logic and the rock-solid truth of the Bible. And yes I know that that last part irks some of you, but I can’t leave it out just cuz of that, sorry :(.
ONWARD! Hey, Ben caught up to me here on the running track and is back again with this comment:
Two things. First, God is ALWAYSALWAYSALWAYS calling you. As in ALWAYS in case you didn’t get it ;). He’s always calling me too. The problem isn’t with Him. The problem is WE are too busy and too rushed to STOP what we’re doing and LISTEN!
He constantly tries to woo you in small, subtle ways. But the truth is, I don’t believe anyone ever notices these things until they reach a personal decision – that they are going to find God whatever it takes. The whole mindset of “God knows where to find me” will never work. YOU have to make a personal choice that you want to find God.
… on to DANIEL who said:
I guess, in a sense, this is what I mean. God being “proven” TO the individual. I don’t believe you have to come to God and say “well I see no reason to believe you exist but I’ll just accept you ‘on faith’”. I would never encourage someone to do that. That’s not even really what faith is. Faith is knowing God is there and that He’s GOOD and that He can be TRUSTED to take care of your life.
Surgoshan: one response – cute recipe!
Airplay said:
Well if that were true, how do you account for the millions of born again Christians who have daily, personal relationships with God?
As for introducting you … I would genuinely love to. But you must come to Him on His terms.
…Myrr21 said:
L O L
Cute
… then I run into myself! Ouch, that hurt ;). Falcon responded to my comment that I wasn’t being rude and then still later, yosemite gave a good commentary which I will let stand as essentially what my response would have been. I will only add this point … Falcon later said:
No, I’m really just trying to understand what makes atheists tick and how they think. I’ve not known many atheists in my life.
Well, then don’t follow this post! No one’s forcing you to read it. Yes, I openly state that I would love to convince people of God’s goodness and that He wants a relationship with them. If you don’t want to be convinced, don’t read this post!
Okay, time for a pit stop. Next up, APB9999! (Continued on next post …)
APB9999 … I finally got to your post! I won’t quote the whole thing but here are some of the highlights:
Let me comment on this one first. First of all, just to jump ahead, thank you for your kind apology, I hold nothing against you.
I actually really like this first point you made. What you seem to be saying is that you see a lot of people who go purely by experience, and you have observed that some of those people, to put it politely, are wacky. You seem to be saying, you want to be cautious and not just accept any “experience” as being legitimate. I like that.
I would say that walking with God involves two “legs” - the mystical and the practical. The mystical is the experience of knowing God, while the practical is the hard cold facts side. I would guess that you would not necessarily agree, but I would submit that the “physical” evidence is the Bible. I call them the stripes on the road. If you think you’re having an experience that doesn’t stay within the boundaries of the “stripes” – you’re getting into “wacky” land. As long as you stay within the stripes, you’re safe.
I would say the other “physical” evidence is the lives of Godly born-again Christians. See my more recent posts.
I am curious what you mean by “physical” evidence. Do you mean supernatural healings and miracles and things of that nature? If you do, that really challenges me. I believe one of the great challenges of the Church today is to operate in supernatural healings to convince people just like you.
You also said:
WELL! I should have kept on reading! I forgot that this was your second point until I just copied’n’pasted it! So I guess your answer lies here … yes you do mean miracles. Out of curiosity, have you ever been to a Christian miracle crusade? Be SURE if you go to go to one of the Godly ones … there are a lot of wacky people out there in Christian circles as I’m sure you’re aware. Would you ever be open to going to one?
Finally you said:
I must confess I didn’t follow what you meant by your last sentence. I think I understand the first, but would you elaborate on the last? What do you mean by the gaps being subject to having their boundaries clearly delineated?
There … I gave you a pretty detailed response! I hope you don’t feel left out now :).
I’ll squeeze a few more into this post, and then it’s on to post # 3 …
OKAY I’m picking up the pace now. I’m going to try to hit TWO IN A ROW! Let’s see if I can do it …
Opus1 said:
I agree they would only prove certain aspects. God wants to prove more than His power … He wants to prove His love for youpersonally.
tracer said:
See earlier answer in my last post. God expects YOU to do your part. What motivation would you have if He just did everything for you?
Annnnnddddd … now we come to Satan. I saw your recent post about still waiting for my response. Well the wait is over, I’m sure you’re thrilled ;).
You said:
It was posted before, by (shudder) me.
Okay enough of the backwards satire. I did post a response to a similar question once somewhere in the C&L thread. Basically here’s the answer:
To prove that God doesnt exist, you would have to prove to me, among other things:
That God and I haven’t had a wonderful relationship for the past 26 years.
That in that time period, the changes that God made in my character didn’t really happen.
That in that time period, the many times that God showed me ingenious solutions to problems (at work and elsewhere) when I didn’t have a clue didn’t really happen.
That in that time period, the changes I’ve seen God make in numerous other people didn’t really happen.
That’s just a small sampling, but feel free to start to work on those four Satan :).
Okay, time for a pit stop, then on to post # 3…
4.
Sorry to butt into the marathon responses, FoG…(and I must say I admire you for it…heaven knows I go away for a couple hours and don’t feel like responding half the time!)
But. My comments were directed at yosemite. I, and I would wager several other people, felt the way I stated. I was responding to the comment of it wasn’t rude unless it’s nagging. shrug
And nope…can’t get rid of me that easily. I’ll keep reading, hon. Besides, I have to be prepared when you move from the atheists to us Pagans. (teasing!!)
Hi Mauve Dog! Thanks for responding to my post. I hope you read my earlier responses because they address what you are saying. You said “He should put in some effort.” I submit to you that maybe He is and you don’t realize it. The thing is … you should put in some effort too, if you want to find God.
You said you don’t need Him. Ah, but that’s the crux of it. Until you believe that you DO need Him, it’s unlikely that you will attempt to find Him. Why would you if, in fact, you don’t need Him? But I would say that we all need God desperately to fill a void in our souls. I think you have to believe that to even want to begin to notice God wooing you.
Onward to … Trisk!
I absolutely, totally, thoroughly, loved your post. You exposed the heart of believers around the globe. It was beautiful and so, so, so true.
now … matt, who said:
Regarding point 1 – I confess I don’t understand. What did you mean by this?
Point 2 - ah, this isn’t a very popular point but it is true: this is what happens now. There is no such thing as a “good” person. You might have a “nice” person or a “moral” person but there’s no such thing as someone who is inherently good.
Point 3 - heck, forget the thunderous voice, I can give it to you right here! We have chosen the path of sin, and it brings a curse on the world as a whole. So the solution is for all of us to stop sinning rightnow darn it! So it won’t work.
Actually, it will work one day. That’s the whole point of the new heaven and new earth someday. There will come a point when even God’s patience will run out.
Point 4 - totally legitimate point. This is one I’ve seen many operate in hundreds of times. There are certain gifts of the Holy Spirit in which God shows you something about someone else you could not have known otherwise.
Freak said:
What if it God had a direct impact on your life that could not be explained any other way?
Nocturne said:
AMEN.
yosemite … already commented on your post earlier …
Mauve Dog makes another appearance and says:
I know this was directed at Tris but I’d like to give my answer. I WAS swayed by common sense and logic to come to Christ. I don’t have a dramatic testimony like some do (ie the usual “I was on drugs and in immorality for 20 years and then God saved me”). To me, by coming to Christ just because it made sense, I saved myself from many wasted years of having to learn that He made sense “the hard way” as it were.
Once I made the choice to receive Christ, it resulted in a dramatic experience and relationship with God that has continued to this day.
spooje, you said:
Oh spooje, my heart really broke when I read this. I feel God’s heart for you as I type. While those you talked to when you were young were well-meaning I’m sure, they erred in one respect – telling you that it was a “feeling” thing.
Some people feel rushes of emotion when coming to Christ, but spooje, some people feel absolutelynothing, just like you experienced! It does NOT mean that God did not come into your heart at all! God loves you.
You also said:
Well I’ll give you a very tiny inkling right now. I don’t even know you, and I can feel God’s love for you welling up inside me as I type. He so longs to know you spooje. Don’t think that just because you didn’t feel anything that He doesn’t want you. He does.
Now, on to the wallcrawler herself, Spider Woman …
God doesn’t condemn his children to a fiery eternity. We don’t become God’s children until we come into His family. We have to be adopted into God’s family, we are not naturally born into it.
And God doesn’t condemn nonbelievers to hell because they don’t believe in God. He does it because they refuse to submit to God and choose to live a life of sin. It’s tragic but true. Every one of us deserves the punishment of hell. What’s truly amazing is that God’s love was so great, that He just couldn’t live with that. That’s why He gave us all an out … if we give our hearts to Christ we can spend eternity with Him.
Dinsdale said:
Yeah I’ll admit that’s frustrating to me too! But He’s started again in the past 100 years or so, it seems. Even moreso in the past 40 years. Miracles are slowly but surely returning in the good ole USA. Overseas, they are MUCH more common.
Annie said:
What do you mean? Are you saying God can’t be proven so just be content with what can be proven? If that’s what you mean, I could never do that myself, because I am convinced of God’s existence. I’ve seen too many heaps upon heaps of evidence for 28 years not to.
Dinsdale you caught up to me again! You said:
Thanks! You are right. It’s wanting God to do good things in your life. In fact, I think that some time in the near future, I might just post a “post your prayer requests here” post and invite some friends over so we can pray about some of the needs in some of your lives! That would be cool.
Beeruser said:
How about God’s life-changing power tatooed on your heart?
sdimbert said:
Each person has to decide for themselves to serve God or not to. But I believe God uses lots of little things, including people, along the way to get them to that point.
GLWasteful said:
And if people such as this claimed that it was only because of God that they lived such impressive lives, would that bend your ear at all, or not? Just curious.
stuffinb said:
It does sound like it sometimes, doesn’t it? But I don’t agree. It’s a partnership. I have to make Godly choices. Only through God’s power can I consistantly do that. As I said to someone earlier on this post, if you TRY HARD to be Godly and leave it at that, you will end up burnt out and you will fail in your efforts. But if you mix seeking God and His grace, with obedience, you will see success.
So I don’t think it rejects personal responsibility at all. Every person has a responsibility to seek God, because if you don’t, you can’t live the Christian life.
Okay, that’s all for now. On to post # 4 …
I can hardly wait for you to get to my post, but I just had to jump in at this point. First, I agree this is a great thread and think that Falcon is a bit off base. She may be personally offended from past experience with you, but I believe you to be honest in your stated goals.
Now, onto the meat of it:
[/quote]
Friend said:
I nominate this for Most Frivolous Use of Phenomenal Cosmic Power Ever. Are you serious? Millions of people starving around the globe, AIDS running rampant in Africa, children going blind in Thailand due to lack of vitamin A, people being murdered in the street, and you pray for an end to your chocolate craving? How selfish is that?
And if this is so freaking amazing, and as I assume that you ALSO pray for world peace and an end to hunger (or else you fail the ‘good Christian living’ test to lure me to faith) why don’t we get world peace and an end to hunger? Why do we only get an end to chocolate cravings?
Would you even consider the possibility that you changed your attitude? Are you so convinced of your worthlessness and weakness that you have so little control over your life?
[/quote]
Why did Doubting Thomas get a personal display? What sort of things are we talking about? Miraculous loss of chocolate cravings? Since the topic is “What would prove God’s existence”, I’d have to answer “a modicum of evidence”, but all you offer is an end to your desire for chocolate.
[/quote]
How do you account for the millions of Atheists who have daily, personal nonrelationships with the IPU?
How do you account for the millions of Muslims who have daily, personal relationships with Allah?
How do you account for the millions of Buddhists who have daily, personal relationships with everything?
Simple - you can believe anything you want. Wishing doesn’t make it so, and personal delusions are not evidence.
[/quote]
I’m tempted to start a new thread on this, but perhaps another time. How do I know a ‘Godly’ crusade from a ‘wacko’ crusade? My bullshit detector cannot distinguish the two, which is precisely why I’m an atheist. So please enlighten me, how can I tell what is ‘real Christianity’ and what is ‘wacko’?
[/quote]
Satan is dead - he’s locked in my basement.
OK, just kidding. How about:
[ol][li]You have thought you had a wonderful relationship with God for 26 years, but in reality you have had a decent moral code and mythology/world view that has kept some semblance of meaning in your otherwise meaningless existence. You have clung to this belief like a drowning man to a piece of flotsam in the sea of cold hard reality.[]The changes in your character resulted from you realizing you like your character better with the changes than you liked it before.[]You actually did learn how to solder in college, so when God helped you fix that circuit board in 1983, it was really some old memories that helped you out, but you had to fit it into your God-centered paradigm. This forced you to give up credit for your achievements once more to your putative Creator.Other people similarly have fooled themselves into thinking God made a difference in their lives, when it was really their power of will which they previously thought themselves incapable of, and which they only allowed to the surface in the context of a subservient relationship to a deity.[/ol][/li]
If this is what passes for evidence in your household, how do you ever know which of your children spilt the glue on the carpet?
Well hi Falcon! I’m glad you’re not leaving :). Feel free to jump in anytime, just be careful not to get run over ;).
Okay, I’m going to accelerate now, 80 M.P.H. …
Polycarp said:
I agree … and that’s why I’m asking where people are coming from because I don’t know! And yes, God knows … but for some unknown reason He chooses to use people like me who stay up until all hours of the night answering posts like a maniac!! In other words, when I try to share God’s love, one of the first things I usually do is ask lots of questions of the person I’m sharing with. I like to know what they are thinking before I say anything. That’s the mistake I made on this board - I didn’t do what I normally do.
… zooooommmmm …
QuickSilver …
whoa! Been a while since I read this one. Ah, I see you have some rather strong feelings there! I don’t have much response cuz there’s not a whole lot to say … I think I’ll just chalk this up to running into a wall on the speedway and continue on …
pl said:
[Quote]
If I spent my free time trying to make you an atheist, I’d be an -----
[Quote]
Whoops that last part got lost in the transmission ;). I disagree. If you really think it’s the best way to live, why keep a good thing to yourself? If you think it holds the answers to life and think it works … share it! I won’t be offended in the least. I’ll be touched that you care pl.
well here comes Polycarp running up again …
Honestly, I’d be curious as to specifics of why you don’t agree with my approach in this post or my other recent post. I remember what you said on C&L but don’t recall anything in these past 2 posts. I’d love to hear your comments, although I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt. But hey I’m open to suggestions.
This was quite kind of you to say and greatly encouraged me. Thank you. And yes, it’s out of God’s love for those on the board. If anything, God’s love through me is increasing for the people on this board.
I now come racing up to BlackKnight on his horse …
I’m curious as to why you believe what you said in your last sentence. Would you care to elaborate?
Nekochan said:
Well! Quite a specific requirement you’ve got there. Actually, when the end of time gets closer and closer, God WILL start doing more and more dramatic things to get people’s attention.
You know, something occurred to me when you said rearranging the stars. God DID put astar in the heavens approximately 2000 years ago to point the way to His Son, sent to die for us.
Another quote from you:
Out of curiosity, why do you think you wouldn’t like Him very much? I will just inject that for me personally, I could not have asked for or invented a more perfect, loving, patient, and gentle God. He is soooo wonderful.
*** gasp *** pant ***
Okay, ah, well, we’re at the end of PAGE ONE.
Although I’m probably nuts for doing this, since it will mean more of the same this weekend, I think I will stop for now. But I WILL attempt to respond to the posts on page 2, plus any others that come along after this marathon. I think it’s time for bed, my brain is zoned. Hope you guys have a wonderful day tomorrow. Catch you later,
FoG
First of all, let me get back to Falcon and say I was mistaken, she was not off base and that I misunderstood her - her last post cleared it up for me.
How about “when people think God is making a change in their life, see if an equal number of people can be convinced that a small mushroom is changing their life, or a crystal around their neck is changing their life.” You know, the placebo effect, the power of belief.
So, a rush of emotion is evidence, but a ‘feeling of absolutely nothing’ is also evidence? What is not evidence?
What??
What sort of miracles? A sudden end to chocoholism?
Before I respond to FoG, I just want to answer a common theme that has cropped up a few times here, about what it means to be atheist. By some measures I am agnostic, but only in the sense that I don’t believe truth can be viewed as a binary operation, i.e. something is either true or false, period. Rather, if we are rational and going by the evidence, there is a spectrum along which we lay down our belief in the probability that a notion is true. We can never be 100% sure of anything, because there is always the possibility of future evidence contradicting what we now believe. To be absolutely convinced of something 100% means, to my way of thinking, that NO amount of evidence can ever persuade you to change your mind. [Put another way, evidence causes us to approach certainty, but only asymptotically.]
So I apply different terms to my level of belief. If the proposition is “X exists”, and I believe the probability that X exists is greater than 95%, I say I’m a believer. If between 60% and 95% I say I’m credulous. If between 40% and 60% I’m an agnostic. If between 5% and 40% then I’m a skeptic. Finally, if I put the probability that X exists at less than 5%, I say I’m an atheist (with respect to X; it doesn’t have to be God, I use the same terms for the Loch Ness Monster). This is too damn long an explanation, and I acknowledge that it only roughly follows the colloquial usage, but it explains why I find it more honest to say “I’m an atheist” than “I’m an agnostic” because although I do allow the formal possibility that God exists, I rate the probability very low. ATHEISTS DO NOT ASSERT WITH CERTAINTY THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. At least I don’t.
Okay, FoG:
Well, sure, if the food is free. No, seriously, I would be open to going to one provided I can stick my nose into everything. I used to pursue magic as a hobby, and I’m well aware of the tricks that can be played on a controlled audience, although I would have to bring in other observers too since I’m a bit rusty now. I want to be able to snoop around backstage, examine the props, have various magicians looking at the thing from all sides, and if it’s a medical miracle I want to subject the miracle recipients to testing both before and after the cure and I want to see the MRIs myself. I want to see a miracle, in other words, that I can’t do myself.
Again the point here is that I am always open to the possibility of my being deluded, either internally by my own emotional and psychological desires, or externally by the deceptions of others. Currently, my impression is that religion is a combination of these two types of delusion for its adherents (mostly the first). I want evidence that is as free from these factors as I can get it. THEREFORE, I look to the cases of beliefs where I KNOW they are in error: Religions and quasi-religious movements that you and I both agree are false, for instance. If those movements contain, say, divine revelation as a mechanism of truth then I MUST reject this mechanism when it comes to my own beliefs, at least without a lot of further testing to make sure I am not being equally deluded.
If stage magicians can seemingly perform miracles, then ostensible true miracles have to stand up to closer scrutiny than stage magic could. I often have trouble getting this point accross; I’m not sure I’ve done it very well here. So I would go to a miracle show provided I would have free rein to prove to myself it isn’t just a magic show.
I just meant that when I say it has to be a logically coherent picture, I’m not demanding that the religious paradigm have an answer for everything. I’m going easy on religion here. It’s okay for a religion to have parts to it that are simply “not known or understood”. I don’t consider that invalidating.
HOWEVER. That is not to say that these holes can be introduced in an ad hoc or arbitrary manner. The boundaries of understanding have to be clearly described, consistently applied, and not create logical inconsistencies elsewhere. Furthermore, a clear reason WHY that specific bit of understanding cannot be acieved should be given. It’s not enough to simply say “Oh it’s a mystery” and leave it. You have to say “The mystery is exactly this, no more, no less. We can go exactly this far, and we can’t go further because if we did we would have A, B, and C, and that would mean D and E and that would contradict F, which we have already established. THAT’S why it’s a mystery, you Godless infidel! Here, have some money.” That’s what you have to say.
As I said in the same post, I’m not big on subtlety. Perhaps I’m just not clever enough to spot it; whatever the reason, I pretty much stand by what I said earlier: God, being the omniscient sort, should know what will or will not work on me (or anyone else, for that matter). Therefore, if He is truly interested in bringing me ‘into the fold’ (another strangely appropriate phrase…), then one would think He would use a method which He knows will work. If I don’t realize He’s working on me, then I’m afraid that He must bear some of the responsibility for that.
And that is the crux of it, isn’t it? In order to accept God, one must first believe that one is empty without him. Those of us who do not feel this way, then, will not find Him simply because we aren’t looking, and see no need to look. If, indeed, I had such a void, I would probably be much more willing to accept any…any…evidence for God’s existence.
If God is wooing me, He’s doing so as a Secret Admirer. Don’t you think it’s time for Him to actually sign the note if He’s serious?
There was a bit of discussion earlier about whether praying for atheists to accept Christ is rude or not. I consider it to be very rude, and I would appreciate it if, when you pray, that you specifically add, “except for Zabes,” when you pray for all of us poor atheists.
I think that it was extremely arrogant to imply that only christians are moral, as you did with your “…when a Christian…” examples. I have known christians that are among the finest people I have ever met. I have also known christians that were grade A jerks. Christians do not hold a copyright on morality. I am guessing that you were not trying to say that, but it really came across that way.
I also think that it is extremely arrogant to imply that the only end to a faith journey must be Christ. I grew up going to a christian church. I called on god, I invited Christ into my heart, I prayed, I meditated, I went to several mainstream churches, I participated in a campus group when I was in college. I spent 10 years inviting Christ into my heart and I never felt or thought or heard anything. You cannot say that I didn’t try. The result of my faith journey…I gave up on all gods, Christ included. Actually, my life has been happier since I gave up trying to reconcile the religion that I was taught as a child with the reality of the world as I see it. You can tell me all you want that god loves me, that god is interested in me, etc. Everything that I have experienced in my life has told me that there are no gods.
I’m glad that your faith makes you happy, and gives you the strength to say no to chocolate, etc. Please keep in mind that my lack of faith doesn’t prevent me from being happy, and I can still resist chocolate, etc. I just don’t need to attribute my happiness, my strengths, my weaknesses, my life experiences, or anything to some mystical source.
Actually, I do want to thank you for starting this post, because it gave me the inspiration for my first sig.
(teasing!!)