What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You?

Great Debates
101

Bold originally posted by me:

1) prayer shown to be more effective than “placebo prayer” in curing illness in a proper, double-blind test.

FoG said: “Regarding point 1 – I confess I don’t understand. What did you mean by this?”

I was being facetious I’m afraid. When you test drugs to see if they work, you give the real drug to a test group and a fake drug (a placebo) to another test group. The test groups DON’T know what they were given and neither do the doctors giving the drugs. (You sort it all out after the trial by opening the sealed envelopes which tell you whether pill 59 was real or made of sugar.) This is known as a “double blind” test.

What is interesting is that the people given placebos often show improvements in their condition. I was implying in my nasty, sneaky little atheist way that cures through prayer are due to this “placebo effect” and would work if the people doing the praying were faking it.
2) bad things only happening to bad people. Lightning strikes on assholes get bonus points.

FoG said: “this is what happens now. There is no such thing as a “good” person. You might have a “nice” person or a “moral” person but there’s no such thing as someone who is inherently good.”

I was being facetious again, but I don’t like your answer at all. Babies can be born with cystic fribrosis because they’re not “inherently good”? You can be “nice” and “moral” but it’s still okay for some random, not-caused-by-other-humans-exercising-their-freedom-of-choice “natural” disaster to ruin your life?

3) floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc. are accompanied by a thunderous voice from the sky telling us what we did to deserve it. Avoidance of these behaviours causing natural disasters to cease.

FoG said: “heck, forget the thunderous voice, I can give it to you right here! We have chosen the path of sin, and it brings a curse on the world as a whole. So the solution is for all of us to stop sinning right now darn it! So it won’t work.”

Fair enough. Seems a bit arbitrary to me, that YOUR house could be carried off in a tornado because of what the rest of us sinful scum are doing, but I daresay it’ll be made up to you in Heaven. (Yes, I know you’re a sinner too. According to your answer to point (2), everybody is. So I guess we’re stuck with this

** 4) divine revelation providing information unobtainable by other means.**

FoG said: “totally legitimate point. This is one I’ve seen many operate in hundreds of times. There are certain gifts of the Holy Spirit in which God shows you something about someone else you could not have known otherwise.”

If you can demonstrate this, Mr. Randi will give you a million dollars. If you can tell me anything about me using the gifts of the Holy Spirit and which you could not have known otherwise, go for it!

102

Some time ago, when I had the temerity to use a bit of poetic phrasing in support of an assertion, Gaudere took me to task on it, and I indicated that others have effectively used them, why not me? And Gaudere responded, in part:

Now the butterflies are back again.

What’s with the freaking butterflies?!?!?!

There, I feel better now… :wink:

103

They are beautiful kisses from God that flutter by every now and again. :slight_smile:

104

Many have alluded to the “proof” that they would need, but I don’t think anyone has written the actual word…tangible. Something…anything…that can be heard, touched, smelled, seen by all of us. FoG has no proof of God, but he is convinced of His existence. I admire his tenacity, and his conviction. His passion is moving. He has experiences, feelings, “knowing”, but nothing that can’t be duplicated with non-prescription drugs.

The God we speak of is omni-everything. He’s perfect. This is where I have a problem. How can a perfect deity create an imperfect place and imperfect beings? Isn’t Satan (not the one on this board) a fallen angel? How does that happen? It just doesn’t add up. Perfection, by definition, can only beget the same.

105

Hi FoG, I thought if I waited you’d get to me and I see you have:
Quote:

stuffinb said:

quote:

A belief in a divine intelligence who would guide us to a better “personhood” to me is the ultimate rejection of personal responsibility.

It does sound like it sometimes, doesn’t it? But I don’t agree. It’s a partnership. I have to make Godly choices. Only through God’s power can I consistantly do that. As I said to someone earlier on this post, if you TRY HARD to be Godly and leave it at that, you will end up burnt out and you will fail in your efforts. But if you mix seeking God and His grace, with obedience, you will see success.

So I don’t think it rejects personal responsibility at all. Every person has a responsibility to seek God, because if you don’t, you can’t live the Christian life.

Well I really wish you’d addressed the other part of my post re: Intelligence, but ill make due :rolleyes:

Please define “Godly” for me, so far as I can tell you’ve pretty much equated it with morality. And while Im on that subject, I like many on the board take offense to your implication that (a) only christians are moral (b) moral actions by non christians equates to nothing. Some one else said sonething simarily too but it’s worth repeating. Ive known a lot of Christians (including my wife talk about mixed marriages :slight_smile: ) and some of the kindest, upstanding people (wife too) are christians. Simarily some of the least moral people Ive ever met sat beside me in a pulpit, or were the quickest to say Amen during a sermon. In short get off your moral high horse.

A couple of things with your answer. It’s meaningless, if you’ll re-read my post you’ll notice what I said about such arguments. If the end results of my actions are the same as yours, you sticking “Godly” in front of yours doesn’t make your choices superior, it only questions your motive. It’s been pretty easy for me to see that rejecting religion hasn’t changed the way in which I run my life (except for not spending quite so much time in church, and religious study) I still do many of the same things I did as a member of the church.

106

Oy, you go away from the board for three days, and you miss all the really big discussions.
FoG: For me to believe in God- specifically, the Christian God you believe in- would take absolute, logical proof that the Bible is true, and that all other religious documents, doctrines, and tenets are false.

Unfortunately, as the Bible is incredibly self-contradictory, and filled with passages that could be taken as metaphor or literal (and with each interpretation resulting in vast differences in what God truly believes), and filled with obvious lies (Noah’s Ark; great story, except that it was stolen whole-cloth from the Babylonians who had written it two hundred years before about one of their legends, IIRC), you’re highly unlikely to get me to accept the truth of the Bible, let alone that somehow the Bible is true when other religious tomes are false, and especially when I expect that the methods you use to point to the Truths of the Bible and the Falsehoods of other texts could just as easily be applied in reverse (i.e., what is True about the Bible could easily be True about the Koran; and why the Bhagavad Gita is False is a light under which the Bible rings just as false).

So unless God is willing to dictate directly to me what His great goals and demands are for our society, I will continue to try and live a decent and moral life by a philosphical code as outlined by Jesus, and then suffer in Hell for all eternity after I die.

107

Hey John - Phil and I are already planning the party in Hell for all of us…what you wanna bring? I’ve got marshmallows, he’s got the tequila. :slight_smile:

108

Wow, what an effort! Anyway, I’ll address your reponse to me:

I think you missed my point. My point was that the proof would have to be unambiguous and available to everyone at the same time, so that the proof can be verified. As I said before, if it were just me who received the proof, I would get some Thorazine. Hearing and seeing things are common symptoms of brain problems.

That may be your God, but it is not the God of the Bible (more specifically, the OT). I am sure you have heard non-Xians bring up biblical atrocities, but I will just mention two examples - 1) God allowing the Israelites to utterly wipe out the Canaanites (genocide any way you look at it. 2) Asking Abraham to sacrifice his son. I know God didn’t mean it, it was just a test, but that is just cruel.

109

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by FriendofGodTo prove that God doesnt exist, you would have to prove to me, among other things:
[ol]
[li]That God and I haven’t had a wonderful relationship for the past 26 years.[/li][li]That in that time period, the changes that God made in my character didn’t really happen.[/li][li]That in that time period, the many times that God showed me ingenious solutions to problems (at work and elsewhere) when I didn’t have a clue didn’t really happen.[/li][li]That in that time period, the changes I’ve seen God make in numerous other people didn’t really happen.[/ol]**[/li][/QUOTE]

Thank you for your response! Now, allow me to reply, playing devil’s advocate, of course:
[ol]
[li]Many people claim to have friends who are invisible to others as children. A percentage of these people are later diagnosed with mental problems because they swear there are people around when nobody else can see them![/li]
Treating you as delusional and mentally ill, you would of course be locked up for psychiatric observation and eventually, with intensive therapy and a regiment of anti-psychotic drugs, eventually you will realize that these voices in your head and “relationship” is nothing more than your sick mind playing tricks on you.

Eventually, if all goes well, you will know and firmly believe that this person doesn’t exist and never really did. If things don’t go well, enjoy your stay at the funny farm, because you’re not getting out while still delusional.

Now, in case you think this is unreal, why is it that you can walk around and talk about this “relationship” with this entity that others think is not real and NOT be institutionalized, when others who do not call the person speaking to them God are treated in this manner?

In fact, it’s not uncommon for those who claim to speak directly with God to be institutionalized either, you know.

So, to answer your question, with the proper medication and therapy, we’ll have you back to normal and not believing in God and other boogie men in no time! :smiley:
[li]See above.[/li][li]See above.[/li][li]Hey - The mental institutions are filled with delusional people. The streets are crowded with people mumbling to themselves. And mass hysteria is a documented thing, you know.[/li]
Besides: Pointing out that other people believe something doesn’t necessarily make it right. It just means that a bunch of people are wrong.[/ol]
There ya go!

Yer pal,
Satan

[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one day, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds.
4948 cigarettes not smoked, saving $618.55.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 20 minutes.[/sub]

"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!*[/sub]

ATHENA HAD AN EROTIC DREAM ABOUT ME!!

110

FriendofGod: Firstly, congratulations on trying to answer everyone who has posted to your comments. I’m not at all sure that I could do the same.

Now, I said:

To which you replied:

Actually, no. But I am impressed by those who I see living their faiths. It’s just that damned few people who claim to be doing so, are.

Now:

I know that matt has already called you on this, but I have to wonder how many children are born with birth defects, born mentally retarded, born addicted to heroin, who you feel aren’t “good”? Because if you say even one, then you are doing a crappy job at trying to convince me of the rightness of your faith.

Waste
Flick Lives!

111

FoG: One more point.

Regarding the question as to whether people of faith leading better lives, and whether that would encourage me to believe as well- absolutely not.

To wit: I admire and respect the virtues and demeanors of Triskademus and Polycarp; were I told to provide a definition of a ‘moral person’, I would be hard torn between the two.

However, their morality, their ‘upwardness’, as it were (as in “always treading the upper path”, not to be confused with ‘uppityness’) bears no relation whatsoever (in my mind) to the actual divinity of Jesus Christ. Were Jesus not the Son of God, would his philosophy of how to treat one’s fellows be any lessened? No. Likewise, Kant’s philospohies of how to treat one’s fellows are beautiful as well, but that doesn’t mean that Kant is God.

I may choose to follow Tris’ lifestyle (and think I do, though I doubt I’m as successful); but believing in the actual divinity of Christ is a completely seperate matter. That requires a belief based upon evidence I do not have, and which I doubt I shall ever have.

Falcon: I’d promise to bring charcoal briquettes, except that I expect we’ll be charcoal briquettes, so what’s the point?

Tell ya what- I’ll bring the Frisbee, and we can play with the Hell Hounds.

112

I’ve never met a Christian who struck me as being more compassionate, strong of character, or morally aware than Mohandes Gandhi, yet though I have immense respect for the man, I’m not tempted by Hinduism. Are you, FoG? Why should an upstanding Christian be any more persuasive of the truth of his beliefs than Gandhi was?

113

I’m not really an atheist, I’m agnostic, but for the purposes of this question, the difference is moot.

If there was a just God, God would strike down all the liars, thieves and murderers who try to justify their behavior by saying they are acting in God’s name, and leave their bloodied heads in heaps with “blasphemer” burned into their hypocritical skulls.

For a single example, shooting doctors who perform abortions clearly breaks the commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” The bible doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not kill unless thou think thou hast a good reason.” It says, “Thou shalt not kill.” Good Christians would trust God instead of taking matters into their own hands, wouldn’t they? Judge not, lest ye be judged…

114

I have to second this one, FoG. A Muslim would tell you that in order for him to accept that Islam was a lie and Christianity was the truth, you’d have to convince him that his loving relationship with Allah of 26 years was nonexistent, that the changes Allah had wrought in his life didn’t exist, that the changes he had seen Allah work in the lives of others didn’t exist, etc.

So, if your argument is valid for you, is it valid for a Muslim?

-Ben

115

Time for a few disclaimers. I am not a moral person. I am not living my life in accordance with God’s word. I am a Christian, and a sinner, and exactly as worthy and as unworthy as any other soul that ever walked upon the Earth. I commend to you the Spirit, and Word of God, Jesus, Lord and Savior. I offer neither proof, nor argument, only hope. I have untroubled faith that He shall save every soul that will be saved. He did not send me to save you, only to love you.

Friend, please offer these souls your “proofs” no longer. Thus far you have been mercifully unsuccessful. My greatest fear is that you will succeed, and bring someone to a belief based on your proof. You shall have to face the Lord and tell Him why you chose to cheat them of faith to give them this trivia. Love them, as He bid you to do, and remember He is whom you address when you receive them, and you should receive them as you hope to be received. Have faith that He will reach them. There is much joy to share. Theological argument is bad enough among the faithful, but with those who still question, it is just earthly squabbling. Give them the only thing you can be sure came from God. Love.

Tris

116

No time for marathon responses tonite unfortunately, but I think I’ll have time tomorrow night or later this weekend. I have read each post just now.

I would like to comment on one overall comment I keep seeing – the notion that my earlier list of Christian’s acting in a moral fashion were specific to Christianity only. I didn’t intend to imply that only Christians do moral things or even Godly things. You can be an atheist and do Godly things! But I’ll comment more in detail later. Just thought I’d give you guys something new from me to analyze :wink:

Catch you later, folks!
FoG

117

It seems to me that there are two possibilities:

  1. You implied that Christians are in some sense more moral than non-Christians. In that case, you are a bigot.

  2. You implied that Christians are the moral equals of atheists. In that case, you have no argument.

-Ben

118

{quote]
quote:

If [His] existence could be proven, [He] would not be God.

I agree completely with that assertion. “Proof” requires a tautology set in an illusion. God is real, and therefore cannot be proven.

[/quote]

Que? I’m sorry if I’m butting into a private joke of some kind, but I’m not getting this one at all. Care to translate? This seems to be three unrelated statments.

A) Proof is impossible
B) God is real
C) Therefore, God cannot be proven.

A is argueable, depending on how you define proof. B is a matter of some question. C is kinda irrelivant. Even if God is real, AND can’t be proven, causality is kinda odd. If proof is impossible, it’s impossible to prove things exist, weither they exist or not.

Are you implying that only things that are real cannot be proven, therefore anything we can’t prove is real? Like magical elves, and Zomel Gustav? What about peanut butter and yarn? I’m pretty sure that’s not what you ment.

Are you talking about the CONCEPT of God? I don’t think anyone’s arguing that exists. But it’s not really helpful in this discussion, as the concept of replicants. And it’s still a non-sequeter.

This seems to be some kind of Douglass Adamsesque version of the Parable of the Cave. If so, sorry for being an idiot.

–
“Audiences will not soon forget the time when the thing we don’t know what it was was carried over to the helecopter, by the guy we didn’t know.”

119

FoG,
You’re going about this all wrong. You’ve asked what it would take to convince an atheist of (a presumably Judeo-Christian) God’s existence; when us atheists reply, not unreasonably, “evidence”, you insist that the evidence is all around, even if it’s not, well, evident. Besides, faith comes from knowing in your heart that God exists, so you don’t need evidence! Don’t you see? God loves you!

This will convince no one.

There are a few things you should accept:

  1. We want the kind of display that Thomas or Saul got . . . or the kind of display that Sodom and Gamora got, whichever will be fine (if Albany were destroyed by a pillar of fire from the clouds on Saturday, my ass would be in church on Sunday).

  2. You are not able to provide us with this display, or even to point us in the direction of it (since it doesn’t exist).

  3. You will not be able to convince us that our successful diets are really the work of God, not salad. Nor will you be able to convince us that your successful diets, or any other mundane aspects of human existence, are similarly the work of God.
    From this, you are left with only two options:

  4. Give up and say, “Shucks, good luck finding God. See Ya!” Prayer is optional, but I’d appreciate it if you did mine silently. I don’t want to be associated with the likes of your God in public; my reputation would be ruined.

2) Try to prove logically, not empirically, that God exists. By that I mean, “If A, B, and C, then D. A, B, and C, therefore D” where “D” is “God exists.” First, you have to show that A, B, and C being true would mean that D must be true. Then show that A, B, and C actually are true. This is remarkably hard to do. Still, if you (or anyone else) wants to take a crack at it, the atheists on this board would be more than happy to shoot you down.
Regards,
Jer

P.S. => Don’t you think my sig line is wonderfully ironic?

120

“Religion is a crutch for the weak.” -Jesse Ventura, Minnesota State Governor

What would have to happen to prove god’s existence to me? Other than the Swiss bank account and such, god himself (herself?) would have to come to my house and have milk and cookies with me. Yeah, well Santa never made it either.