This reminds me of a line form an old movie (the “RULING CLASS”-ca 1970, starring Peter O’Toole). In the movie , O’Toole plays a wealthy english nobleman who becomes convinced that he is Jesus Christ. When challenged by someone to prove himslf (by performing a miracle) he says.".look at your hand…a thousand miracles a day you see, and YOU want to see cheap magician’s tricks…"
This eeems to be the case of people wanting proof of God. Aside from this, I highly recommend this film…the duel of O’Toole (JC) with the “high voltage messiah” is hilarious beyond words!
You know, when David B. and Triskadecamus tell you the same thing, albeit in different ways, it’s probably something you can count on being true.
Somehow in all the discussions about “proving God” and in my distinguishing between “belief in* God” and “belief that God exists,” I missed the point. And I’m willing to gamble that at least half the other posters did too.
Suppose you have a loving God, very much in keeping with the one that Lib., Tris., FoG, and I have been alleging is there. And He, being omniscient, knows much more clearer than we do what will be beneficial to us in the long run.
What’s He gonna do? Well, He’ll send messages about Himself through humans, He’ll offer some evidence of His existence. But He won’t make it obvious (except in retrospect).
Why? Because faith is a virtue. It’s one of the strongest character traits I know of. We’re not talking intellectual acquiescence to a revealed dogma here, we’re talking commitment, allegiance, assurance. And that is what characterizes the good Christians I have known… their radical faith in God. It is what motivates them to do the things they do, for good or ill. (By the way, a faithful Jew or Moslem is covered by this same virtue – I am not playing sectarian, but defining the hallmark of a good theist’s character.)
If divinity were as obvious as gravity, no faith would be called for. Allegiance, maybe, but not faith in the strict sense.
And that’s the answer to FoG’s question. Faith is what’s required – because that’s the way God wants it to be, not because he’s playing games, but as a strengthening point for our character. He didn’t self-identify as “Father” in the New Testament for nothing.
David? Your analysis of the logic sequence here is greatly desired. Joel, any comments? I’d love to see what Chaim and Zev as faithful non-Christians have to say about it, too. And most especially Tris.
Well, I haven’t really paid attention to this discussion. It grew too quickly, and we’d been over it a couple times before. But I did a quick search for my name, and lo and behold, there it is!
Anyway, which part do you want me to comment on? I’m not entirely clear on that and may have missed something because I didn’t read most of this thread.
Are you saying that I can’t be virtuous without faith? Virtue, as defined by Merriam-Webster (online) is “conformity to a standard of right” or “a particular moral excellence”. There are six other definitions, but none include “faith in a divine power”.
I applaud your faith. I wish you well in it. I just don’t have it. If I, Zabes, professed a belief in god, Christ, or the IPU, I feel that I would be without virtue. Why? Because my belief would be empty, without faith. It would be dishonest. If you read my previous posts, I tried for years and I came up with nothing. I could still go to church, pray, take communion, etc. I don’t, because, in my heart, in all evidence I have seen, there are no gods.
Based on what you’re saying, Poly, it would seem that any commitment or allegiance to any relatively beneficent philosophy is the moral equivalent of theism. Is that an accurate summary, or am I missing something? Because it appears that the commitment isn’t really to God, per se (you remark, “If divinity were as obvious as gravity,” which you’ve been telling us all along that it is, as far as you’re concerned), but to what you all believe God wants you to do (since, you, Chaim and Zeeshan, for example, all have differing ideas about that).
Faith in the worth of courage and doing good for your fellow man is a wonderful thing, I agree. Faith that God will heal your 2-year-old’s profusely bleeding wound without taking him to see a doctor is not so great. Faith should work with reason, not deny reason. And I’m afraid that for me–and probably most other atheists–the faith to believe in God would only come about through a denial of our reason. For all I know, God stops by your house every morning for breakfast, but since He has not seen fit to furnish me with such evidence, how can it be virtuous to “have faith” in something that I do have sufficient evidence to believe exists? Would it be equally virtuous if I had faith in boogeymen? I have more subjective evidence for them than I have for God. Faith that something exists in and of itself is does not seem like a virtue; it seems to me like a simple amoral judgement of likelyhood.
You bring up the difference between faith and allegience as an explanation for God’s decision to not provide obvious evidence that He exists, but I think you are missing the faith that would still be required even if God objectively existed. Let’s say God would objectively exist, and can explain His actions and message. You would still have to have faith that He is good, and what He does is for the best, that you’re not really dead when you die, that everything will work out all right, that He won’t pull a switcheroo on you in the afterlife, etc., etc. It seems like this sort of faith is more truly what theists mean by faith, and not the simple judgment as to whether God exists or not. After all, jmullaney seems to have faith in God’s existence, but no faith in God. (As far as I can tell; apologies for the offense if this is not so.)
You know FOG…Poly, David B. and Trisk are right you cannot “prove” anything here. But if it does make you feel any better after reading through this thread I would say you have won a small victory and perhaps in your mind it could be construed as a small “proof”…this entire thread has remained for the most part civilized and free of rude or patronizing comments on the part of all the non-believers involved. They have been infinately patient with your unsuccessful attempts to prove anything but your zeal. Because even for me, a person that would love to be able to believe in something again, you have proven nothing.
You certainly can’t use the virtues of your Christian friends as proof. You cannot use how God works each day in your individual life as proof, that does nothing for me after all. And for me especially, you cannot hold the Bible as proof. Poly is right, it’s exasperating enough to debate this subject with your fellow believers, why subject yourself to this debate with those who may never believe.
So now I think I will ask a rude question…what makes you so determined to do so…what makes you so determined to prove your faith? Is it indeed a genuine “calling”, some divine inspiration, or is it arrogance? Tell me that it isn’t a bull dogged notion that you are right and God is on your side on this one. And why? Why is it so important that you convince these particular people? There must be hundreds of souls right there in your own neighborhood, just thristing for the knowledge. Is it the challenge? Could you be thinking that to convert just one of these individuals would be some kind of triumph, perhaps even your own personal “proof”? I’m no longer interested in hearing your proof, or anyone else’s disproof. Now I’m interested in your motivation. Why is this particular battle so important to you?
Gee, I get to play FriendofGod and do a Marathon Post ™ !
David, I’d like your review of the internal logic of the paragraph sequence in my 8/11 8:05 AM post that begins “Suppose you have…” and runs through the end of “And that’s the answer…” Then I’d like your critique of how this works in your worldview, as a separate question. Since it starts with a supposition not shared by all present, including yourself, I want to check out whether the logic, explaining as it does an insight, makes sense given the supposition. Then I would presume that you’d care to refute it on skeptic grounds (though if you decline to do so, that’s fine).
Zabes, no, I am not saying you cannot be virtuous without faith. No decent Christian (other than a thoroughgoing Calvinist who believes nobody, including himself, can be virtuous without God’s help) would make such a supposition. Nor am I in particular suggesting that this be limited to faith in God. (See my response to Phil, following.) I am saying that it is one of the virtues. And that instilling that virtue in man is (probably part of) the reason God operates in the way He does.
(Another virtue is honesty, truthfulness. And David B., a man who is self-confessed as without faith in the sense I use the term, is a man in love with the truth. What else would make him so vehement against urban legends, so insistent that one’s speculations and opinions be grounded in true data, so patient with us as we explore every topic ever brought up at a college bull session all over again, and with about equal results?)
Phil, you sort of have my point, but in a skewed way. The spiritual strength/state (not quite an emotion, not a discipline, not a logic structure, a “virtue” in the sense the medieval scholars gave the word, rather than a moral judgment) called “faith” in itself a benefical condition for human spiritual development, no matter what its object. Whether it is morally proper to have it, a quite separate question from its strengthening of the spirit, depends on its object. And decisions made in keeping with it represent yet another moral question. (You do have to remember that Chaim, Zeeshan, and I would concur that we worship the same God, simply understanding Him in different ways. And if Chaim were to have to define his spiritual relationship to God in Arabic, his statement would be fundamentally synonymous with the basic doctrine of Islam. – “All wars are at bottom civil wars.”)
This leads to one of the points Gaudere makes, which is quite simply founded on a misprision of two meanings for the word. You cannot argue against “in” faith by basing your points on “that” faith. To say, “Joe has faith in God (good) and therefore, being convinced of faith-healing, refuses to take his sick child to the hospital (bad)” is saying that one cannot draw bad conclusions from good data by faulty reasoning. On this basis, since there are flying objects that are as yet unidentified, Krispy Original was right. And that is as absurd as an evangelical solipsist. (Never mind, Phil, I heard that thought! ;)) That which strengthens character is beneficial, but to conclude from this that it is right to cause someone emotional or physical injury because dealing with it strengthens their character is crossing the line into illogic.
Needs2Know, I’ve been there, where FriendofGod is. Yeah, there’s an element of arrogance in it: “I have a TRUTH that you need to know.” But far more of it is in the sense that He is in love with His Creator and needs to shout that from the mountaintops, and share the sensation it gives Him with as many as possible – the same generosity from good feeling that makes a man buy a round for the house (IBC root beer all around?;)) – and a sense of “following orders I agree with” – the person He has taken as Lord left marching orders to spread the Good News and make all men His disciples, and his Friend is simply doing what he was instructed to. But, yeah, I too am curious as to what Friend will say about his motivations. That I share some of them does not make me privy to all of them, and I am quite curious as to why the approaches and insistences he uses are the ones he chose. And why here?
One of my three boys had the viewpoint you ascribe to JMullaney, Gaudere. He was firmly convinced that there was a God, but that God was using him to bring happiness into other people’s lives, while denying it to him. And he had sound reasons for thinking this, given what was happening in our social circle. In what would probably have been hilarious if viewed by a third party but was poignant to the three of us involved, my wife and I had a long discussion with him about this that culminated in us doing a duet of “The Rose” for him – which is partly why I quoted it to JM on another thread. I’m happy to say he is now living a joyful life with a wonderful girl and a newborn son, and sees the situation in a quite different light.
As long as you’re only playing FriendofGod, and not playing God. That’s my job.
Yeesh. I didn’t know there would be homework! Okay, I have a few minutes here (took the morning off of work, but it’s almost time to go in), so let’s see what I can do.
I guess my first problem is in the assumption that faith is a virtue. I’m not so sure that it is.
Faith is necessary for a child. The child must take, on faith, whatever his adult guardian says. If he doesn’t, he could be injured, or killed. So maybe he’s never seen evidence that he shouldn’t run through the house carrying a scissors, but he needs to take it on faith from his guardians that he shouldn’t do this. So in this way, faith is good.
Once we get older, though, I think we should rely less on faith. When an adult tells another adult something, it can be dangerous to just believe him. Ask the followers of Jim Jones about that. Or ask any victim of a con-man. Or anybody who’s ever bought a used car. (Which some may say is redundant to the sentence that immediately preceded it.)
You seem to be merely asserting that faith is necessary because you know people who have had solid faith and strong characters. But you also know me, Gaudere, and others here, who don’t have faith. We require evidence to accept things. I happen to think that is a better way to go. (This, of course, comes as no surprise to you. )
So why does God require faith? Why not give us the evidence for which we ask? It all comes back to God doing whatever He does because, well, He’s God.
Unless you can provide empircal evidence showing that faith is better for people, it’s still an issue of belief.
– OK, is that what you were looking for, or did I miss something else I was supposed to address?
I am not sure what point of mine you are arguing against, Poly. You say that faith is a virtue. I say it can be, if it does not deny reason, or love. But I do not think faith in something’s objective existence is much of a virtue, when it is not grounded by sufficient evidence (as it would be for us atheists). Faith is a virtue if it is faith in something with sufficient evidence for one to conclude that it is a good thing to have faith in. But faith in God cannot be a virtue for me, for I have not seen sufficient evidence. It would not be a virtue for me to believe without sufficient evidence; it would be as wrong for me to have faith in God as it would be for a person to refuse to go to a doctor for their gunshot wound because of their faith in God. Both are having faith in something without good, reliable evidence; there is no reliable evidence of God for me, and no reliable evidence that you won’t bleed to death if you do not get some help when shot. The virtue of faith in God that God wishes all of us to have is simply unavailiable to me. I have faith in many things, but unless God provides more evidence for me, faith in Him would be no virtue. Why should God deny atheists the virtue of faith in Him by refusing to provide adequate evidence? Faith is only a virtue when the evidence is well-grounded enough that you have good reason to believe; else faith in God’s goodness is the same as faith that hurting people is morally correct. The fact that faith can be a virtue does not release you from your obligation to judge the evidence to the best of your ability. If the evidence points to lacking faith as being the better choice, then that is the only virtuous thing to do.
So I guess you end up with atheists for whom it is virtuous to not have faith, and theists for whom it is virtuous to have faith (assuming, of course, that both have weighed the availiable evidence without close-mindedness or excessive skepticism or credulity). If God wished all people to have faith in Him, he would provide enough evidence for them to do so. For me, faith in God would be as wrong as faith in boogeymen. I do not believe that God should require His existence to be held to a lower standard than I use to judge anything else, simply because faith can be a virtue. If faith in God is held to an equal standard as anything else, well and good, and I do not doubt that theists have sufficient evidence for themselves to have an honorable faith in God. But God should not say that it is virtuous to have faith without sufficient proof; and if He will not provide sufficient proof, it would be wrong to have faith. Therefore, I think that God’s apparent decision to not provide such evidence does not increase the well-being of humans (by making them have faith). Either a theist’s faith is grounded in evidence, and thus virtuous–and therefore God could provide enough evidence for all to have a virtuous faith–or the faith of a theist is insufficiently grounded in evidence, in which case it is not inherently any more virtuous than any other poorly supported belief.
Faith can be a good thing, I agree. But not faith without good reasons to have faith. I do not deny the benefits of faith that may accrue to a theist, but I think we are arguing different points here. You are saying that faith is good, it is a spiritual strengthener, regardless of whether the faith is in God’s Goodness or any other arbitrary thing. Therefore God does not provide obvious evidence of His existence because He wants people to have faith, since faith is a good thing. I am arguing that faith must have good reason, otherwise it simply gives you strength to do wildly foolish or even evil things. I daresay many have committed atrocities because their faith was not sufficiently analyzed and questioned. Therefore I further argue that God, if He wishes all to have faith in Him, has an obligation to make sure that faith in Him has good reason, or the same mindset that accepts God by faith without sufficient evidence may accept other things on faith without sufficient evidence, to the overall harm of all.
Thank you Gaudere, I was mentally trying to post along a similar line, thanx for saving me from the trouble.
FoG (or any one else who wants to take a crack at it)
Id like to go back to something I said earlier, that being a belief in God became to me a rejection of my intelligence. While in Seminary School (Golden Gate if anyone’s interested) this was often a subject for debate amongst friends I had there. No one could answer satisfactorily problems I had when my common sense said this can’t be correct, but the Bible said the opposite. (sorry, vague I know but to get into details would take too long).
It seems to me that if I have to make a choice between rationality, and faith and God was asking me to choose faith, then something is evidently wrong with this system.
Real world example: My Grandmother would get behind in her bills often when I was a teen. One of her preffered methods of dealing with problems like these was to “pray on it”. This rejects the more rational solution, to cut down on her expenses, call and make arrangements to get caught up on her bills, etc. I.e., there were real world solutions to her problem, yet she chose an irrational one because her faith told her it was the correct choice. (often my mom or someone would lend her the money to pay her bills, this was seen in her eyes as the answer to her prayers)
It seems counter intuitive to design a creature with intelligence, and then explicity (or not so explicity depending on which camp you’re in) say “But Don’t use it”. Accept me on faith, despite the fact that I gave you a mind capable of disovering the truth.
After reading the past several posts, I want to clarify what my responses to your posts are getting at. I am not per-se attempting to “prove” God to any of you in any kind of final, definate way. That would be too big a leap for most of you at this point, I suspect. The next paragraph will explain what I am attempting to do.
I will answer the question about motivation that someone posted recently. I actually have three motives for this particular post:
Sincerely, I just want to find out how atheists think, why they don’t believe in God, and what they think it would take to bring them to belief in God. I’ve known very few atheists in my life so asking questions about what they believe is the only way I know to begin understanding them.
I also would like to simply make a simple comment or two here and there to encourage and/or nudge some of you to think about things from a different perspective. I’m not out to instantly convince or convert everyone en masse. In fact, I’m not out to “convert” anyone. God does the converting. I am merely one of His flawed tools that He uses, and I’m just wanting to encourage some of you to look at things from a new angle.
Honestly, the biggest reason I’m here after 1 1/2 or 2 months (can’t recall for sure) is because I can literally sense God’s love in me for the people of this board. It is actually growing in a way I didn’t expect. Truthfully, few of my peers in the Christian community, sadly, would want to take this much time to try to reach a group like this. Many would have said, “too much work”, “too difficult”, “unreachable”, etc etc. I can’t do that. I’m not even totally sure why. I never intended to be on this bboard so long. But it seems that God’s love for you folks is so strong that He keeps bringing me back.
Obviously I could be totally wrong in thinking God wants me here for a season. But all I can do is be obedient to what I believe God is calling me to do and leave the results in His hands.
I will say this … I think I will officially change the OP question at this point. I could have worded it better. So from this point forward, the question is
NOT: “What would it take to prove God’s existence to you?”
But rather: “What would it take to bring you to a place where you believed in God?”
Perhaps that will explain better what I was getting at. Not so much “proof” as “belief”. Personally, I am 100% convinced of God’s existence. Yes I have faith in God, but my faith is based on clear evidence of His existence that I see on a daily basis and have seen for years (and yes, I’m eager to get to the earlier post where Satan’s tries to make me feel like I need psychological help ;)).
Like someone said recently, I don’t believe faith should be “mindless”. In other words, I don’t believe in saying, “Well I just believe it cuz I believe it!” I think there has to be a measure of evidence … but there does come a point where you see enough evidence that you are willing to take a leap of faith. ONCE you take that leap of faith, I believe that’s where you become 100% convinced of God’s existence. But it’s at the end of the process, not the beginning.
Hope to comment more on your posts on Saturday evening.
And yet, He must be Lord for fools, and Savior of idiots too. In the end, each of us can learn some truth, but no one of us can know all truth. We bring our limits to the task of eternal life, and it is not within our reach. Our passions tie us to the world, and our intellects limit us to what we can see, and touch. But He is not just the Lord of wise men, nor only of the learned. He is Lord of all.
When you learn that you are a fool, you will know a new wisdom. When you leave the world behind, you will know other worlds, and greater. But you live now in this world, and in this world your own talent is yours to use. Learn as you can, teach what you know, do what you can to make this world better. The futility of that unending task is not important, for the task itself is the achievement. For this you need faith. The world will be lost, and you cannot save it. Yet the end can be greater than the world, and for this, you must have hope.
But first, and last, you have only each other, here in the world. For these, and for yourself, you must have love. It is God’s gift to you that such a thing might be. Love is what God made, and you are how he makes it. Love cannot be constrained, or coerced, so you are free to love, or not. Why does God let us sin? Because He needs us to be free to love. Why does God need our love? I don’t know. But the world will pass away anon, and we shall see, if we wish to be part of what wondrous thing God Himself awaits.
And if there is no God, then why love? Why give to this dream a faith and belief that it is worthy of our lives? To be the sort of fool who loves his fellow man although there is no reward beyond the world for doing so. (for surely anyone can see there is scant reward within the world for loving fools.) To be the source of something which, without God has no other source in all the universe, than the heart of Man. I do not have that fear, but were it in my heart that we poor mortals were alone in the world, it would be more reason than ever to give my life to the love of all with that same faith.
Yes, faith itself gives strength to the spirit. But faith alone is not enough, nor is faith, and hope enough. You need love, and you need to love. With this, your soul can be nurtured, and you, yourself can be the source of love. I believe that the Lord will know you, and you will know Him before the end. I have no other wish for you, but that you open your heart to love, that He might enter it.
FoG, will there ever come a time when you will give up trying to convert us to your belief system, and just accept us the way we are? It’s not enough to say that you have friends that are Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Atheist, etc., if you always feel the need to tack on “…but I’ll never stop trying to fix them!” How can we have a conversation with you about any other subject without feeling that the only reason you are talking with us is to win us over to your religion?
I have page 2, page 3, and this response screen open at once and I’m going to start again trying to respond one by one to each of your posts! Since there are so many, please realize I’m only going to try to summarize your main point as best as I can and give a brief response.
Please keep in mind my most recent post. My goal is not to convince you God exists. It’s to encourage you to possibly look at things from a new perspective and consider other possibilities.
And we’re off ! …
Lamia said (4 DAYS AGO! Wow I’m behind) :
I’m going to plead ignorance as I know nothing about brain tumors, but I am so sorry this happened to you! How is your health today? Is it cureable? I’m sorry if these are stupid questions but I really don’t know.
As for what you thought was a religious experience … should you write off religious experiences just because this particular one happened to be bogus?
QuickSilver said:
I am not sure exactly what you’re getting at. Do you think I’m here because I’ve just gotten so uncontrollably excited by my church that I just had to come online to preach the gospel to atheists??? Nope. Believe me, it’s not fun getting your beliefs hacked to death and ridiculed on a daily basis (note: I’m aware not all are doing this). I’m here because I believe God wants me here for a season. Whether I heard correctly or not, time will tell.
lissener said:
I cannot completely agree. I would say that the proof you can eventually gain of God’s existance isn’t so much a tangible thing you can point to, but a certainty that only comes when God Himself is actually living in you. And having said that, sometimes there are tangible proofs (ie, miracles, etc).
Ptahlis basically said something along these lines. I agree. Faith is better described as “total trust in an individual”, in this case, God.
lissener responded:
I don’t think God is completely understandable to the human mind, but He is certainly partly understandable. Otherwise, how would we ever come to know Him? Out of curiosity, why is it important to you that you come to God ‘mysteriously’ and not out of something that just makes sense? What do you mean by ‘mysteriously’?
Gaudere said:
EXACTLY! Wow I’m agreeing with you a lot lately Gaudere. What’s wrong? (Just kidding)
I’m going to stop here and continue on the next post …
At this point on page 2 I’ve come to my 1st response post in which I listed 5 themes I was noticing in everyone’s responses. I listed several traits as examples of how a Godly Christian might behave.
I briefly responded to the criticism of this list, but let me do so more thorougly now. Most of you took it to mean that I think only Christians can be moral. I am sorry if you took it that way. I actually remember a college professor that was one of the nicest people on the campus and he was an avowed atheist.
My point was not to put down other people, but merely to show that God has the ability to change people from something they weren’t into something brand now. Think caterpillar to butterfly. I could probably better have said –
Imagine a man who lied all his life turning down the business deal rather than lying
or
Imagine a man who has lusted all his life turning the other way when a woman leans toward him
etc etc
My point is … God can transformlives in dramatic ways. He can change habits in you that you might think are unbreakable! His power is amazing.
Since I just responded en masse to this point, I will only highlight other points made by you guys in the following posts.
On to BEN …
You said, in response to the verse about seeking God with all your heart:
Tell me more about this! I’ve heard inklings, and one person told their story in detail, but I haven’t heard yours Ben. Did you have a disappointing experience like this?
APB9999 … I said that it can’t be true that God can’t be proven because He’s been proven to so many. You responded:
All right then … what about the possibility that this opens up, however? If God truly doesn’t exist, if He’s so hard to prove, why are there any people that believe in Him? And we’re not talking about a small minority. We’re talking a wide cross-section of cultures, races, backgrounds, etc etc contain people that do believe in God.
All I can do is throw this tidbit in. I WISH I could say I’ve seen zillions of miracles first hand, but I haven’t. I also wish I could say that I personally verified them all, but I can’t. I have, however, seen a few miracles here and there. In my church about 8 or 9 years ago, a lady that had been going there for years and that was almost totally blind in one eye was instantly and totally healed during one of our services. She started reading words off of the overhead and started crying. It was totally confirmed by her doctors.
In Marietta Georgia in 1986, a lady sprained broke her ankle badly while playing volleyball. She was put in a cast. Now, she was a new Christian and had never experienced any of this before.
Several of the people in her Bible Study group prayed for her leg to be healed and she started yelling “It’s hot! It’s hot!” She didn’t realize that that’s the classic sign that God is physically healing you (it’s common for the part of you that’s being healed to feel warm).
Again she was new to this, and wanted to just take the cast off! The leaders in the group encouraged her to go to the doctor the next day to be sure God had healed it and not to jump to conclusions. Well, she didn’t listen. She went home that night and got rid of the cast and was completely fine! The doctors checked her out and were amazed.
Now I wasn’t there when this happened, but I met the lady in 1991 and she was my Bible study group leader until 1994. She’s a very credible young woman and I have no reason to doubt her story.
On to Trisk …
You said in response to my notion that the best way to check out Christianity was to check out Christians:
Trisk, forgive me for being slightly exasperated here, but please read my post before responding! This is exactly what my point was! I went on to give examples of how God might change the life of a Christian. Never once did I say you should look at the way they “publicly profess their religion”.
Well, yeah. We all need God. None of us are worthy of having a relationship with God. It’s available to all. When you do come to God, He touches you with His power and is able to change you in ways you can’t change yourself.
douglips …
I responded to most of what you said in my “generic” comment at the top of this particular post, but here’s one thing in particular I wanted to comment on:
First … why do you think I would consider a Lutheran pastor ‘not quite enough Christian’ for me? Second, I too hate it when people say things like that because of one thing … how do you know it was God’s will?
There is a hugely mistaken notion out there in the world, even among many Christians. That notion is that “If it happens, it must be God’s will”. I say that is bogus in a big way. As a simple and quick way to disprove that, simply compare the fact that many people don’t come to faith in Christ, and God’s will is clearly stated in the Bible that He wants all people to come to Him! So when someone dies without God in their life, God’s will is not done.
Libertarian had many great things to say, and I just wanted to pull one really great quote:
AMEN. I’ve never known two people who came to Christ in the same exact way.
POIUyt said:
I agree with the first part of your statement, for the most part. Even the most devout Christian sins, but a true believer, as you said, lives a lifestyle that shows that they have a relationship with God. They aren’t perfect, but they are noticeably different.
As for celibacy … just to give you something to think about … ever read Song of Solomon in the Bible? God seems to be a pretty big fan of sex!
POIUyt, if no one’s ever said this to you let me be the first: you don’thave to end up like this! You can choose tonight to come to Christ if you want.
Okay, I’ll stop here and continue in a sec. We’re almost halfway through page 2! I’m getting there …
Well, yeah. I’m talking about showing respect for a woman and not treating her like a sexual object, which we men are prone to do. I’m not talking about, “You look nice today” comments.
There’s no such thing as a human being better than yourself. We are all equally guilty in the eyes of God, and we all equally need God’s forgiveness.
Thank you, and I wish the same for you :).
I don’t EVER try to “impress God”. God loves me as I am. I can’t do one thing today to make Him love me more.
I am here, not hoping to convince atheists that my way is the Right Way. I am here hoping to convince atheists to give God a second look. And yes, if some choose to come to Him as a result I would be overjoyed, but I don’t know if that’s what God called me here for. I think I’m just a seed planter.
Nekochan said:
Well, it’s actually both the love of God and the love of the people combined. In a way you’re making a good point, because cults can draw people in the same way. The only difference being it is merely human love and God is not in it. Satan will prey on people like this to lead them astray if he can.
I don’t know at all how to quantify it, because I’ve never been in a cult, but I know a young woman from Atlanta who was in a cult for a year before coming to the church I was going to at the time. She said the love in our church was so different from what she’d experienced elsewhere. All I can say is, GOD being involved does make a difference.
Regarding people who have had God’s existance proven to them, you said:
Which brings up a good point … how do you know the criteria you are using is the right one? (Not just you literally, I mean everyone). Who’s to say that the criteria these people used isn’t the right one?
Ah, the classic question - “what about the pygmies in Africa”, etc etc. This probably deserves an entire thread, but to just give one tidbit:
It is an odd catch-22 that Christians have puzzled over for centuries. On the one hand, we are urgently commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel. In fact, there is a push right now to get the Bible translated into languages that it’s never been translated into before (I’m talking about very obscure languages of groups of natives).
On the other hand … God says that no one will have an excuse for not having turned to Him on judgment day. I don’t claim to fully understand this, but it makes me feel more urgent about spreading the gospel. I will say this: the Bible seems to indicate that God does reveal Himself to all people in some way or another. I’ve heard almost spooky stories of God revealing Himself to tribes and natives that had neveronce in their history had missionaries come to their area.
lunapark said, in response to my list of Christian godly traits:
As I said a while ago, I should have clarified that it’s the change in a person’s life that’s supernatural.
Scupper … hi by the way I don’t believe we’ve met :). You said:
What an interesting list! Actually, the first 3 points are not too difficult, but your fourth one surprises me a bit. Why do you feel this way? To me personally, God would not be a good God if there was only heaven and not hell. How can you be good if you allow people who have chosen not to submit their lives to God into heaven?
Fear Itself …
… your post absoutely had me rolling. It was great! I cracked up through it all, and then was surprised by your parting shot! I didn’t find it arrogant, pointless, and annoying at all - just funny! “When Deities Attack” indeed!
WOW! I just caught up to my marathon responses from the other night. I’ll stop here and continue on the next post …
douglips, I’ve come back to you again. You responded to my marathon post about craving for chocolate and called it …
“The Most Frivolous Use of Phenomenal Cosmic Power Ever”!
I loved that! I cracked up when I read it.
For the record, the whole chocolate ice cream thing was madeup! It was just an example 'kay?? Sheesh … ;).
You said:
Nope, I wouldn’t consider it. I’m not convinced of my “worthlessness” by the way – God attaches great “worth” to me and to all of us.
Weakness on the other hand … one of the keys to having a healthy walk with God is being aware of just how weak you are! There are certain areas God has just gifted each of us in, and those are easy areas for us. There are other areas, however, that we are all weak in. These are different things for different people.
The point is … recognizing your weakness is the key to strength! This is where you get those wacky Christian paradoxes – “When you’re weak, He is strong”, “To find your life, you must lose it”, etc.
The ONLY think I did was seek God and ask for His wisdom and act in obedience as He nudged me in a direction. HE is the one who changed my HEART! And HE is the one who gave me the power to change! And HE is the one who brought certain subjects up in the first place! Some areas I probably would have never even seen if it weren’t for God.
I mentioned that God woos us in small subtle ways and you said:
It’s different for different people, and I’ve noticed that it seems to accelerate when a person begins actively seeking God. In one sense, God waits for YOU to take the first step. But in another way, God does try to get your attention in little ways … an encounter with a believer here, a tract there, a chance scan of a preacher on a radio here, a song there … lots of little things.
Regarding miracle crusades:
Off the top of my head …
Who does this miracle crusader submit to? Does he have a pastor and/or board of leaders that he must submit to if he gets out of line? If he says “I just submit to God”, look elsewhere.
Does what he say line up with what the Bible teaches?
Here’s a big one: what is the FRUIT of his ministry? Are the people that come from his crusades spiritually refreshed in their walks with Christ? Do verifiable healings actually happen?
One that isn’t a criteria is “style”. I’ll tell you personally that very FEW of the miracle crusaders I’ve ever seen have a style that I personally like. They are a little overly dramatic for me personally. But that doesn’t mean they’re wacky … it just means they have a style I don’t like!
And NOW … let’s take a look at your response to my response to Satan’s challenge about what it would take to prove that God doesn’t exist to me … (whew)
One at a time:
Not even a chance, sorry :)! First, you can hardly say my faith in God is something I’ve been “…so …desperately… trying…to…hang…on…to”. Nope, it’s just there and it’s not going anywhere!
The crux of your point is that I’m basically kidding myself - I think I’m relating to God but I’m really not. Again, not even a chance. Over the years you get to know the difference between your own voice in your head and God’s voice … and believe me there’s quite a difference!
As one tiny example out of 20+ years with God … I remember one time in the summer of 1996 I was having a rather extensive time of seeking God. He began speaking something to me that I did NOT want to hear! I literally TRIED to push it away and convince myself it wasn’t God, but I could not get rid of the thing no matter how hard I tried! God in His love was not gonna let me slide on this one!
After about an hour of this, I finally said to God, “OKAY … if your so intent on saying this to me, please confirm it clearly before the end of the day.” And then before the day was over He did indeed confirm it. Agggghhhh!! I remember not being happy.
Thankfully my time with the Lord the next 2 days went much better. God explained WHY He was leading me in the direction He was leading me. After 3 days it all made sense to me and I was good to go. But my point is … I would NOT have on my own chosen the direction God was leading me in!
Again, that’s one example of many that came to mind. So I’m afraid this one won’t work … there’s definately an outside force at work here. Thankfully He’s a loving force and He’s working for my good! (Thanks God ;)).
Point # 2
I hope you won’t take offense, but I literally laughed out loud at this one! Not at you personally, just at this notion. Again, the things God brought up in my life were blind spots I wouldn’t have even noticed if God had not brought them up. And MORE importantly – there is NOWAY I could have changed in these areas without God’s strength and power. Because of Him, I’m very different than I once was, and I’m still changing!
Point # 3
Nope again. Actually, there are many times that I am simply using gifts that God has given me to solve problems. I teach computer software for a living. Fixing computer problems can be QUITE a bugaboo! Over the years, when I’ve had major problems, I’m embarrassed to say that there have been few times I’ve asked God for help. I’ve fallen myself for the deception that “God doesn’t care about these mundane things.” God cares about every thing!
Needless to say, the times I HAVE asked God to show me how to solve a problem, the problem ALWAYS got solved quicker and easier than if I didn’t. So now can someone tell me WHY I still forget to ask in those situations???
Point # 4
You haven’t seen the transformations I’ve seen. All I can say is, it’s quite obvious God was involved.
So anyway, nice try but my faith in God is pretty intact and I don’t see how it could ever be broken. Actually, it really just can’t be. I’d have to deliberatly turn my back on God to fall away. There’s really not a chance of my not believing in Him because I know He’s real! I have no excuse!
Okay, I’m posting ONE more after this and then it’s lights out …
I spoke earlier about how when people come to Christ they sometimes feel a lot and sometimes feel nothing. You said:
BOTH are NOT evidence. Feeling a lot AND not feeling anything doesn’t prove a thing. A person who truly in their heart gives themselves to Christ and receives what He did for them on the cross is a Christian. It MAY result in great emotion or it might not. It’s the decision of the person, not their feelings, that determines what happens. The EVIDENCE comes in the days and weeks to follow. The evidence is a changed life.
I mentioned miracles overseas and you said:
LOL! No, actually pretty dramatic New Testement type miracles. Many Christian leaders have speculated why it’s not as prevelant in the good ole USA. In other countries, many cultures KNOW that the supernatural exists. It’s not a matter of is there a God or isn’t there, it’s “is your God’s power as great as our god’s?” It’s a totally different environment, and God seems to show up in more dramatic ways.
APB9999 again! Hi how are ya? I asked about you going to a miracle crusade and you said you’d consider it if the food was free. Well guess what? It usually is! So that means you’re committed to going, huh?
In this day and age, this is totally understandable because there ARE fakes out there. I’m sure you’ve all heard of the guy who exposed a so called faith healer on the Johnny Carson show years ago.
MANY of the better faith healers today actually BRING unbelieving doctors to the crusades to verify the healings that have happened in previous nights. I’m going to tell you honestly I’ve not been to a whole lot of these crusades myself. Mostly I’ve seen healings on a smaller scale in our little church setting.
I really like your approach. You’re saying you’re aware that you’re vulnerable to the possibility of getting sucked into a lie and want to be sure of it before you jump in. THAT is smart.
I have been thinking of something all through this post. I think at the end of this one I’m going to recommend a book to all of you. It’s a book about a skeptic who studied God in various forms before finally deciding on Christianity. More later at the end of this post.
Finally, you said:
Gotcha, I understand better now. That makes sense. An example might be the Trinity … explaining that God is expressed in 3 distinct personalities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit … but that God is one being. And that there is no known way to fully understand what that means.
Mauve Dog! Hi again. You said:
I don’t know how to respond except to say this: if YOU want to find God (and I don’t know if you do or don’t), then at the veryleast you can start aiming yourself in His direction. You can wonder all day why God doesn’t seem to be speaking to you in a way that will reach you, or you can decide to strike out in His direction and see where it takes you.
You also said, regarding my comment that the crux of the matter is that you have to believe you need God:
This is why I was originally going to post a totally different topic than this one. Your comment here makes me want to post the other topic. The topic I’m referring to is basically a topic to expose just HOW sinful all of us really are. Believe me, it’s much worse than any of us realize. In reality, we all need God equally, but that isn’t equally obvious to all. If circumstances are going good, it might seem like you don’t need him.
Mauve you seem to me like a pretty open fellow. I will pray that God will begin doing things in your life that will get your attention.
Zables, you said:
This post makes me sad, but I will honor your request. Jesus never forces himself on anyone and neither will I.
Well, if He IS the only way, wouldn’t it be foolish to not say so? You don’t think He is but I do. What kind of person would I be if I said He wasnt the only way when I believed He was?
I am sorry you had this experience. It sounds eerily similar to another poster who told me of their bad experience with Christianity recently. I’m not at all surprised your life is happier now because it sounds like you were under a weight of religion rather than a relationship with Christ. I am truly sorry you are not open to God or to prayer … all I can do is hope that this changes some day.
And with that … I’ve reached the end of page 2. I may try to catch up the remaining posts tomorrow night. If not, later this week.
Oh! I almost forgot the book I was going to recommend. It’s a true story about a very unconventional guy who eventually became a Christian artist in the late 70s and early 80s, before being killed in an awful plane crash at the age of 28 in the summer of 1982.
The main reason his story might be of interest to some of you is that this guy was a HUGE skeptic for years before he came to Christ. The book chronicles his journey. I think you might find it interesting regardless of your beliefs.
It seems to me that there are other options God could have chosen besides hell for those who don’t come to him. He could have them be reincarnated or simply have them wink out of exsistance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but souls that are damned to hell can’t repent and get out. The only reason to keep them around would be to torture them. Is it not within God’s power to cause these poor souls to no longer exist, in order to relieve them of their suffering? Or is he simply apathetic to their pain with a, “They had their chance,” attitude? If God wishes to run his universe that way, its up to him. However, he doesn’t sound very loving to me.
Regarding the OP, I agree with APB9999. Evidence of God’s existance would have to pass scientific standards for exidence. That is to say, it must be physical and repeatable by other people under the same conditions. It also must defy any attempt at a natural explanation. I think that is rigorous enough to satisfy everyone. So, FoG you can tell God that for me, and if he pulls it off he has my vote.
