What would it take to stop Middle East terrorism against the U.S.?

Great Debates
1

Yes, yes, we all know that terrorists come in all stripes and from all countries and, no, the overwhelming majority of peoples from the Middle East are peace loving and God fearing, etc. etc. etc., BUT, what would it take for the Osama bin Laden’s of the world (of the Middle East, that is) to stop their attacks on or hatred of the U.S.?

What drives these people, other than hate? Is their primary objection our economic and military support of Israel? The “decadence” of our presumed cultural imperialism? Our intervening in the affairs of sovereign nation states, past or present? Our military superpower status? A perception of arrogance?

What, precisely, drives these blood-thirsty extremists to shoot, bomb, knife or otherwise coldly murder innocent people? What do they really want from us?

2

Maybe Bin Laden doesn’t really exist, or if he does, maybe he is a secret shill for the US military-industrial complex, paid by religious fundamentalists in the CIA to help build up huge armies as a grand strategy. But that would be insane. Why would anyone want a huge war in the middle-east? Nevermind.

3

Merely look inward for your answer. Why would a minority element of American society abrogate Federal law to impose their own doctrine upon the majority of the people?

The religious right, in its attempts to impose its will upon the American people, is a mirror to the motivations of terrorist organizations. Many religious terrorists are not able to consider the notion of a pluralistic society. The inability to accept complete separation of church and state too often breeds instead, the willingness to condone the idea of a state religion.

The American constitution’s concepts of gender equality, self determination and freedom of belief are seen as flying in the face of other extreme religions by their practicioners (including some here in America). As with the Communist mentality that all other political beliefs must be brought into the light of socialist doctrine, so do many extreme religions believe that it is their sworn duty to bring the world into sway with their own faith.

Other elements that you mention all play a part in the problem as well. We Americans may suffer a bit from imposing our way of doing things upon the world (see my Bhuj thread) as well. It is a little easier to disregard accusations of Imperialism when your own country has the greatest degree of personal liberty of any nation on earth.

However, many other cultures historically derive their stability from an almost repressive conformity (often through religious indoctrination) and could not possibly permit the freedoms that Americans enjoy. Therefore, we in the United States are seen as a veritible threat to their entire way of life. Sadly, there is rarely middle ground in this sort of extremism.

Terrorism will always be able to assert itself in an open and free society. The very nature of sureptitious attack inhibits its complete proscription without significant curtailment of personal freedoms. It is one of the prices that we pay for a free society. It is also why it is so important that we be willing to lay down our lives when called upon to support its continuing existence.

4

I don’t know. What if we were to just leave them alone?
Oh yeah.
Oil.
Peace,
mangeorge

5

I think Zenster has captured the problem best here.

6

Second Zenster’s post.

Just to add a mundane point, bin Laden’s main beef with the U.S. is the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. This he deems is a threat/insult to Islam, as armed non-muslims should not be in the same land as Mecca and Medina. So, the direct answer of how to chill bin Laden out would be to withdraw our troops.
For what I think are good and compelling reasons, we won’t.

Sua

7

I think Zenster expressed the underlying problem very well. Ignoring that philosophical/theological side, I think that we could end Middle East terrorism against the U.S. by a very practical three-step approach:

1 - Evacuate all Jews from Israel and give the entire land, including all buildings, equipment, capital, etc to the Palestinian leaders

2- Remove all U.S. personnel (both military and industry)) from the entire area, turning over all buildings, oil rigs, equipment, capital, etc to the local rulers

3 - Removing all signs of U.S. culture from the area, including things like movies, blue jeans, advertising, music, electronics, etc; prohibiting any U.S. newscasts or glimpses of life in the U.S. from leaking into the area… or anywhere else outside the U.S., for that matter

I think they’d be willing to put up with us as the Great Satan if we stayed away from them, everywhere in the world.

8

[troll]You wanna know why many Arabs hate Americans? It’s very simple: Television. Go to any arab country and on every other building you’ll see a satellite dish. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

They watch out t.v. shows and recognize a pattern:
(1)Americans are immoral
(2)Americans have lost their faith in God
(3)They don’t see normal Americans, so they use this portrayal as a reference.

So, with television producers trying to be secular and appealing to the LCD (lowest common denominator), they have caused non-Americans a misunderstanding of our culture.

Maybe if we started portraying outselves in a more positive fashion the Arab world might actually like us.[/troll]

9

On the other hand, perhaps such a retrenchment on our part would only embolden the more radical elements to press their cause for global jihad and completely rid the world of the western infidel. Besides, doesn’t the modern historical record generally show that exceptionally repressive regimes–at least, totalitarian if not religious fundamentalist–need an external enemy (read: villain) by which to divert the attention of their populace away from their deprivation? Perhaps they need us more than they think.

(Why do I get the feeling that Callounsbury is but a keystroke away?)

10

Why all the “troll” stuff, SpinneZiege?
There’s a strong element of truth in your post. From a fundie Muslim POV, we are pretty sinful. And we are in thier faces with it, being over there and all. Hell, we’re pretty sinful from a fundie christian POV. :slight_smile:
There is probably no resolution to this problem because we can’t get out of the middle east, nor can we all be Muslim. Not me, anyway.
The great majority of Muslim people are actually pretty tolerant.
Peace,
mangeorge

11

Mostly agree with Zenster but SpinneZiege has a great point. I think you would be astonished to find out how many Americans think American society is identical to most TV movies/sitcoms/news reports/hyped up racial documentaries and even advertisements.

Like, you men, how much shaving cream do you use to shave daily? Once it dawned on me that you don’t need the heavy lather shown on TV, a can of cheap Barbasol will last me 8 months! I also, with a moderately heavy beard, can get 5 shaves out of a cheap razor blade cartridge instead of buying the expensive ones.

In order to get terrorists to leave the US alone, we will probably have to go in and bomb the middle east back into the stone age, and that is not good, nor is it going to happen. Oil might seem a factor, but without US bucks, 3/4 of their oil rigs would not be there, nor would they be selling as much.

It’s always humorous to me to watch some hairy, robed, oily skinned guy, with an education equivalent to the 8th grade, still trying to live the traditions of desert nomads, screaming at the Great Satan, i.e.: US. Most of his money and luxuries come not only from the US, but he’ll ride off in US based cars and use US based technology.

It never seems to dawn on the average fanatic that the world is progressing and they are still stuck partially in a 1000 year old lifestyle. (Look at the guys who have to walk around with these great, ugly knives stuck in the front of their pants to prove they are male. A male child is not a man until he gets his first Great Ugly Knife to stick in the front of his pants.) Nor does it dawn on many that 3/4 of the world does not particularly agree with their strict religious attitudes which restrict human rights.

Plus, it seems not to sink in to many that their own leaders are unfairly distributing oil billions to only around 2% of the population, leaving social programs mostly unheard of and the main power in the hands of the rich. It would not be in the direct interests of the rich to take care of, well educate or elevate the standard of living for the majority of the unwashed masses.

mangeorge

Yeah. What makes it worse is that we enjoy it too and look like we’re having a real good time. Those folks over there seem to hate having real good times. I mean, we generally wear colorful clothing, have little things like paved streets, our men look good and our women not only pretty but dress to HORRORS! show off their fine bodies, plus shudder these women have equal rights and dare to compete directly with men in all areas! What’s worse is that the men allow it!!

Plus the TV programs! Horrors! On can watch anything on TV from basic educational programs, to accurate history, to fiction to false religions, to steamy sex! Oh my!

And no one wears any Great Ugly Knives or symbols of manhhood!

And, Americans are having fun!! That can’t be good.

12

I’m not saying we should all take a pilgrimage to Mecca next spring break instead of going to Cancun. I’m saying we should remember not to be so… what’s the word? Foolish? Selfish? Sinful?- in the face of the world, specifically the Arab world.

13

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Twentyeight *
Like, you men, how much shaving cream do you use to shave daily? Once it dawned on me that you don’t need the heavy lather shown on TV, a can of cheap Barbasol will last me 8 months! I also, with a moderately heavy beard, can get 5 shaves out of a cheap razor blade cartridge instead of buying the expensive ones.

huh? Abu Nidal and Osama bid Ladin were/are motivated by their lust for a closer shave?

It’s always humorous to me to watch some hairy, robed, oily skinned guy, with an education equivalent to the 8th grade, still trying to live the traditions of desert nomads, screaming at the Great Satan,…

I too hate guys with 8th grade educations…

Those folks over there seem to hate having real good times. I mean, we generally wear colorful clothing, have little things like paved streets, our men look good and our women not only pretty but dress to HORRORS! show off their fine bodies, plus shudder these women have equal rights and dare to compete directly with men in all areas! What’s worse is that the men allow it!!]

Right. Colorful clothing, concrete, and fine-bodied women: the hallmarks of American democracy.

[And no one wears any Great Ugly Knives or symbols of manhhood!

I’m waiting for you-know-who on this one…

14

I’m not saying whether they are right or wrong, Twentyeight. I have trouble with such concepts in matters like these.
All I’m saying is that it is their country, their domain, and that they are looking at us through their eyes. As related to the OP, whether or not we like it isn’t relavant. They don’t like us pushing our mores down their throats.
By the way, it is their oil. And the money comes from our desire for that oil. If they choose to spend it on “Great Ugly Knives”, well, there’s not a lot we can really do about it. We can refuse to buy their oil, but you know how far that will go. Us Americans have B.U.K.'s of our own, you know. :slight_smile:
I don’t condone terrorism, but neither do most Muslims I’ve known.
Peace,
mangeorge

15

Since I was summoned…

I am fairly appaled by some things here. Sometimes ignorance just comes along and whacks ya right up side the head.

A few observations:

(1) I would hazard the observation that illiterate Yemanis with “ugly knives” are the majority of fundamentalists. Imagery is nice, but not accurate and in the end quite deceptive.

(Insofar as its fairly hypocritical for Americans to critique others for idiotic shows of manliness, can we say ‘SUV’ and hot-rod?)

(2) My experience leads me to conclude that much of the leadership and even the audience for Islamists is not the uneducated (whose whacky religious customs are often criticized by the Islamists) but the educated without real opportunities. A kind of lower-middle class reaction againts the corrupt pseudo-secular regimes. Often our allies for better or worse. Ergo, 28 could not be more wrong in his/her understanding of the Fundamentalist understanding of their economic problems. Of course, the problems run deeper than mal-distribution of oil wealth (and guess what, not all countries have oil wealth either.)

(3) The average fanatic is not stuck in a 1000 year old lifestyle but rather is finding new, and unpleasant in my opinion, interpretations of modern lifestyles. A modernness reacting against our modern life-style. Their interpretations and lifestyles, however, are not 1000 year old choices, but often radical new interpretations. Good or bad, it ain’t the old game. So, another fundamental misunderstanding. (The Taliban are an exception to be sure. They are in fact primitives. However, they are not, in my experience representative of the main movement of Fundamentalism which remains a modernist movement.)

(4) If the USA were to pull out of the Middle East – and I neither think that is a good or realistic idea – I do believe that regardless of media, their interest in us would drop dramatically. Most fundamentalists I have come to know are really much more interested in internal problems. CDex’s comments in that regard are somewhat unfortunate exageration --excepting Israel.

(5)Clothing. Well, 28 is just… I’ll censor myself here. Again, the Gulf is not the entire Islamic nor Arab world. Colorful clothing, you’ve seen fucking nothing until you’ve seen an Egyptian gellabiya party. Frankly, the color combinations are a bit extreme. Colorful. Even in the Gulf, outside Wahhabi areas folks put on some color.

Nor do I think that liberty per se means dressing skimpily. Everyone has their own standards. It ain’t my cup of tea, but frankly we attach way too much meaning to whether a woman wears a short skirt or not --and frankly from a certain perspective that doesn’t reflect well on the pressures Western society places on women.

(Again, I exclude Taliban folks and the Wahhabis in the Gulf from this, but they’re not the only Islamists around, in fact they’re not the majority. Most influential is the Muslim Brothers in Egypt. Don’t care for these folks, but they’re the real agenda setters.)

Further, although it may seem strange, I’ve noted a strong feminist strain in the most modernist sections of the Islamist movement. Not our kinda feminism, but it might be a plant which grows and develops more naturally in the culture. Maybe.

So, 28, learn some more before promoting fairly comic-book depth ideas.

16

I dunno, why?

17

You’ve been in the ME too long. That “summoned” bit sounds like you pop out of a magic lamp! L

Best Regards.

Testy.

18

Frankly, I’m surprised that there’s not more terrorism against the US. For as large of a target that we are, in terms of physical size, the freedoms we have and our stature, we rarely hear of planes being skyjacked, buses crashing into crowded stops (like what happened today in the Middle East), and bombs going off every other week (such as in Ireland).

Not that I am encouraging us to become more of a target, but it is really odd to me that we don’t find ourselves more in the line of fire than we are.

Yer pal,
Satan

19

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned American capitalism as being the engine of so much wrath in the Islamic world. By it’s very nature, capitalism is aggressive i.e. It constantly seeks out new markets and develops those which it has - one might argue the Capitalism was the origin of the concept behind the Borg. Being among the best, certainly the largest, exponent of the concept of Capitalism, the US impinges on the Islamic world in a variety of ways.

Aside from the inevitable micro and macro economic levers, it also impinges on (influences) politics, culture……heck, just about every dimension of life.

I also think the West, as the instigator of all those world bodies: The UN, WTO, etc, defined the worlds moral standards in white, Anglo Saxon, but most importantly, Christian terms and through those bodies judge other religious States. The West then uses its capitalist supremacy to influence the indigenous morality / religion of non-Christian States on the basis of its own (internationally standardised) morality.

The non-Christian world often sees duplicity in the application of this imposed morality and behind it, a not so well hidden Capitalist (economic and political) agenda. Therein lies much of the frustration, IMHO.
Also, the US is the most ‘free’ society in the world ? With all due respect, I don’t know how much travelling you guys have done but I really don’t think that is the case at all.

20

The US troops are stationed outside of Riyadh, over 1000 KM from Mecca/Medina and their interest in those areas is bordering on nil. BinLaden knows this as well as anyone. My personal belief is that if the troops packed up and left he would be somewhat ambivalent about the matter. On the one hand he could claim to have “forced the great satan to leave the holy lands” but on the other hand what would he complain about next? He’d have no cause with which to recruit. My personal feeling is that BenLaden simply wants to be important and most any excuse would do. Before we had troops here he complained about/irritated the local royal family.

Just my two cents worth.

Testy.