What would you choose -- heaven/hell, or nothingness?

[Der_Trihs]

@Martin Hyde

To counter some of the things Der Trihs has said, if there is an all powerful and all knowing God, this God is well beyond labels like “egomaniac.” This god is also beyond any sort of gender definitions, or any of the labels or characterizations that even the most devout worshipers want to ascribe to the divine.

The God worshipped by most people is quite easy to define; an all powerful male egomaniac. Also, any creature that wishes to be worshipped is an egomaniac.

@Martin Hyde

If you want to hate God you have to work within the context of the religion. And to work within the context of the Christian religion it’s impossible to logically hate god, because God is a being beyond comprehension so any attempts to levy judgement upon this God-being are completely fruitless.

First, the “context” is something I regard as both evil and stupid; I’m hardly going to use it for any sort of guidance on any subject, including God. Second, God is quite easy to comprehend; for all the speeches about how far beyond us he is, he acts just like a crazed Third World dictator.

@Martin Hyde

You can attempt to do the same with the Christian god, but to do it logically you have to work within the constraints of the religion. And within those constraints to call God a monster is not logical and in fact just proves how fallible you are.

I regard all religion as fundamentally worthless; I refuse to accept it’s judgment on any subject, including whatever god it worships.

@Martin Hyde

But I’m saying if you die and there are two doors, one door offers a form of existence free from physical handicap/pain and the other door offers oblivion, almost no matter what conditions are put on the first door no one will choose the door to oblivion over it.

I’d rather be dead than a slave; making it last forever just makes the slavery worse.

[mswas]

@Der Trihs

The God worshipped by most people is quite easy to define; an all powerful male egomaniac. Also, any creature that wishes to be worshipped is an egomaniac.

I don’t think you know what worship means in this context.

First, the “context” is something I regard as both evil and stupid; I’m hardly going to use it for any sort of guidance on any subject, including God. Second, God is quite easy to comprehend; for all the speeches about how far beyond us he is, he acts just like a crazed Third World dictator.

You are only an egomaniac if you aren’t actually as powerful as you think you are.

I regard all religion as fundamentally worthless; I refuse to accept it’s judgment on any subject, including whatever god it worships.

Then why do you insist on a God wearing jackboots?

I’d rather be dead than a slave; making it last forever just makes the slavery worse.

You are very much alive, and very much a slave.

Erek

[Der_Trihs]

@mswas

You are very much alive, and very much a slave.

Hardly.

[Rodgers01]

It’s probably irrelevant after this many posts, but I still don’t think the dilemma as I originally tried to describe it has yet been addressed by most people. So let me try to simplify it a bit. Assume the following is true:

– Heaven is good. You will like it. No, you will love it. Forget about your ideas that God is selfish, that it’d be boring, or whatever – heaven’s where you want to be.

– Hell is bad. No, the cool people aren’t there; it’s just a place of utter, extreme misery and unhappiness, for ever and ever and ever. You do not want to go there.

– Nothingness is…nothingness. Nothing good, nothing bad, no seeing grandma or your first dog again after you die. Just complete, utter, unthinking, unconscious emptiness.

You have two choices. You can either choose to be religious, and have your life be judged by the standard of the major world religion of your choice, with the possibility, if you’re judged to have lead a good life, of getting the GREAT, AWESOME reward of going to heaven. Of course, that means that you have to lead a “good” life down here on earth – you can’t smoke, drink, or dance the hootchie-koo. (For the literal minded, I don’t mean that literally, it’s just a figure of speech.) But if you’re judged to have lead a bad life, you run the risk of going to HELL.

Alternatively, you can choose to avoid the whole risk of religion, by being guaranteed perpetual nothingness after you die. No pain, no pleasure – just a whole lotta nothin’.

Which of the two do you choose? If you choose the religious angle, which of the world’s religions do you want your life to be judged by?

[Tevildo]

@Der Trihs

I’d rather be dead than a slave; making it last forever just makes the slavery worse.

• smiles * Although our opinion on the general issue may be opposite, I think you’re the poster to this thread with whom I agree most.

Have you read “Paradise Lost”?

[Tevildo]

@Rodgers01

– Heaven is good. You will like it. No, you will love it. Forget about your ideas that God is selfish, that it’d be boring, or whatever – heaven’s where you want to be.

– Hell is bad. No, the cool people aren’t there; it’s just a place of utter, extreme misery and unhappiness, for ever and ever and ever. You do not want to go there.

– Nothingness is…nothingness. Nothing good, nothing bad, no seeing grandma or your first dog again after you die. Just complete, utter, unthinking, unconscious emptiness.

One point that I think I need to mention. What if our interpretation of your definition of “heaven” is the same as your definition of “nothingness”?

[Der_Trihs]

@Tevildo

• smiles * Although our opinion on the general issue may be opposite, I think you’re the poster to this thread with whom I agree most.

Have you read “Paradise Lost”?

No. If you’re comparing my attitude to Satan’s “better to rule in Hell” speech, I rather agree with him. As far as I’m concerned, if your a slave, it’s not much of a heaven.

@Rodgers01

Which of the two do you choose? If you choose the religious angle, which of the world’s religions do you want your life to be judged by?

Oblivion. I could never force myself to take religion seriously, and I don’t agree with any of them anyway.

[mswas]

@Der Trihs

No. If you’re comparing my attitude to Satan’s “better to rule in Hell” speech, I rather agree with him. As far as I’m concerned, if your a slave, it’s not much of a heaven.

Heaven is absolute freedom. Satan’s speech in “The Devil’s Advocate” is an attempt to trick the protagonist into serving his agenda.

Oblivion. I could never force myself to take religion seriously, and I don’t agree with any of them anyway.

But you like to force a very narrow conception of it onto people when you debate about it.

Erek

[Rodgers01]

@Tevildo

One point that I think I need to mention. What if our interpretation of your definition of “heaven” is the same as your definition of “nothingness”?

Well, I’d have a hard time believing you, for one thing. But if absolute nothingness=the best thing you can possibly imagine, then I guess you’d have to go for the guaranteed nothingness.

Oblivion. I could never force myself to take religion seriously, and I don’t agree with any of them anyway.

But it would be irrelevant if you could take religion seriously, because the question presupposes for the sake of the argument that whichever option you choose becomes absolutely, concretely true. In other words, it would be factually serious, whether you took it seriously or not. But if you’re saying that in spite of that you’d still choose oblivion, okay.

[Der_Trihs]

@Rodgers01

But it would be irrelevant if you could take religion seriously, because the question presupposes for the sake of the argument that whichever option you choose becomes absolutely, concretely true. In other words, it would be factually serious, whether you took it seriously or not. But if you’re saying that in spite of that you’d still choose oblivion, okay.

Things can be silly and/or disgusting and still be real. And yes, I would choose oblivion over any religion I know of.

[Rodgers01]

@Tevildo

One point that I think I need to mention. What if our interpretation of your definition of “heaven” is the same as your definition of “nothingness”?

Well, I’d have a hard time believing you, for one thing. But if absolute nothingness=the best thing you can possibly imagine, then I guess you’d have to go for the guaranteed nothingness.

Oblivion. I could never force myself to take religion seriously, and I don’t agree with any of them anyway.

But it would be irrelevant if you could take religion seriously, because the question presupposes for the sake of the argument that whichever option you choose becomes absolutely, concretely true. In other words, it would be factually serious, whether you took it seriously or not. But if you’re saying that in spite of that you’d still choose oblivion, okay.

[Der_Trihs]

@Rodgers01

But it would be irrelevant if you could take religion seriously, because the question presupposes for the sake of the argument that whichever option you choose becomes absolutely, concretely true. In other words, it would be factually serious, whether you took it seriously or not. But if you’re saying that in spite of that you’d still choose oblivion, okay.

Things can be silly and/or disgusting and still be real. And yes, I would choose oblivion over any religion I know of.

[Rodgers01]

@Der Trihs

Things can be silly and/or disgusting and still be real. And yes, I would choose oblivion over any religion I know of.

And you wouldn’t put up with some silly and/or disgusting rituals for a shot at guaranteed happiness for eternity? Fair enough if that’s your answer; just making sure.

[Tevildo]

@Der Trihs

No. If you’re comparing my attitude to Satan’s “better to rule in Hell” speech, I rather agree with him. As far as I’m concerned, if your a slave, it’s not much of a heaven.

Exactly.

“Suppose he should relent
And publish Grace to all, on promise made
Of new Subjection; with what eyes could we
Stand in his presence humble, and recieve
Strict Laws impos’d, to celebrate his Throne
With warbl’d Hymns, and to his Godhead sing
Forc’t Halleluliahs?”

[MrDibble]

@Rodgers01

Well, I’d have a hard time believing you, for one thing. But if absolute nothingness=the best thing you can possibly imagine, then I guess you’d have to go for the guaranteed nothingness.

Why so hard to believe? Loss of self-conciousness can be said to be the goal of some major Eastern religions.

I’m another one who’d choose oblivion, BTW. And no, I’m not just saying it to score cool points.

[monavis]

If it is possible for nothingness to exist, then it has to be something, or there is no existence.For nothing would have to be something. Confusing Huh?

Monavis

[Rodgers01]

@MrDibble

Why so hard to believe? Loss of self-conciousness can be said to be the goal of some major Eastern religions.

I guess because if you truly believed that, why not just end it all right now? Why go on with life (something), when nothing, the best thing you can possibly imagine, awaits? Unless, of course, you believe that you can’t attain that nothingness through suicide…

[Tevildo]

@Rodgers01

I guess because if you truly believed that, why not just end it all right now? Why go on with life (something), when nothing, the best thing you can possibly imagine, awaits? Unless, of course, you believe that you can’t attain that nothingness through suicide…

To quote Hamlet again:

“… To die, to sleep-
To sleep - perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.”

If we can’t be sure that death leads to oblivion, then seeking oblivion through suicide is wrong, as any afterlife following suicide will be even worse than this one. On the other hand, if someone is sure that death will lead to Paradise, then, yes, suicide is the right option by their standards - Jonestown, Heaven’s Gate, etc. Which might be an argument for never being sure about anything regarding the afterworld.

I’d be interested to hear the atheist take on this issue. I imagine it’s something along the lines of “this life is all we have, we might as well make the most of it, which means staying alive as long as possible” - but I’m open to correction.

[MrDibble]

@Rodgers01

I guess because if you truly believed that, why not just end it all right now? Why go on with life (something), when nothing, the best thing you can possibly imagine, awaits? Unless, of course, you believe that you can’t attain that nothingness through suicide…

Well, for those religions, it’s not a nothingness vs heaven/hell thing, it’s a nothingness vs constant rebirth thing, so yeah, suicide’s no way out.

As for myself, there’s no major religion whose heaven I’d be sure of getting into … in fact, I’m damn certain I wouldn’t make it into most of them. So per the neoPascalism of the (revised) OP question, I’ll choose the certain oblivion over the uncertain. It’s not my atheism that makes me make that choice, but the unlikeliness of me getting into the good part of the other choice.

Oh, and Tevildo, that’s the way I see it in non-hypothetical real life, yeah.