What would you do if the tech. safety net failed?

Great Debates
1

Many years ago, I saw a BBC series (with James Burke - before Connections) and the last episode was basically the subject headline.

I seem to remember the premise he started with was for whatever reason trucks were no longer able to bring food into NYC, that the place would be a ghost town in 30 days. (Apparently there is only a two week supply at any given time).

So the basic questions he asked were:

  • Could you protect yourself and your family from the chaos that would ensue when you and the other 9 million or so are all trying to evacuate the city.

  • Once you were free of the masses and had located some arable land, could you locate the seeds, plow/plant, and protect it while you harvested it? (He made the point that you might get away with farm equipment the first year until you ran out of gas, but then, did you have the skills to be able to farm w/o them?)

  • After the food was harvested, did you know how to store the food, and save seeds out for the next year’s crop?

Well, for those who would like to participate, lets take this mental challenge a step further.

When I was a child, my grandfather told me about the ‘summer that didn’t happen’ or something like that. A fairly large volcanic explosion occured on some other part of the planet, and it snowed on his farm in June - everyone’s crops were a total loss for the year.

Well, a really large volcanic explosion could not only shut down the growth cycle for a couple years, with several poor years thereafter, if it dropped the overall temperatures it could very well shut down the ocean currents - very bad news. There is pretty good evidence that this has happened before btw.

So… would you be one of the masses running for the equator looking for anything larger than a rat to eat - most likely after the first year that would include other people.

Or… would you find a hole in the ground, and try and wait it out. If this was your option, what would you take with you to keep you and your family alive for say… ten years?

This isn’t trolling for assholes, I really want to know.

2

Ok, first of all, any situation that prevents food from reaching NYC for extended period of time is something that must be effecting the entire country, if not the world. Even after 9/11 people didn’t take to the streets rampaging with bats and shotguns.

Second, it is impossible to respond unless one knows the nature of the crisis.

Finally, I don’t know shit about farming so the only way I will survive is by stealing a shotgun and a leather jacket and scavenging through the wasteland in my V-8 interceptor.

3

I’d stay put, and I don’t think I would be alone in doing that. It’s my guess that many people in town would stay here.

I know where to get seeds in town, and where to get the shovels and rakes and implements of destruction that I’d need to grow food. I could get these things from the stores for free, or barter (I don’t think cash will be worth much after the Cataclysmic Event™) with the proprietor if he’d also decided to remain behind. In the case I could not reach a deal with a store owner, I would not be above pillaging abandoned properties for the tools and supplies I’d need.

The process would be the same for canned and dried goods.

If there was advance warning of the Cataclysmic Event™, I would certainly stock up on ammunition for my rifles and shotgun. I keep a small stock at all times, but not enough to last for an extended time. A bow and arrow would be a necessity as arrows are often recoverable. Of course, I’d have to learn to shoot it accurately.

There should be some newly vacated arable land available for me to settle on. Except for myself, my family all have green thumbs, so growing food on the land would not be a problem. I guess I’d just have to be overseer. :wink: There’s game in the hills and fish in the lake also.

Locating solar- and wind-power generating equipment would be a priority.

Things I would try to gather up (by pillage or barter) against really hard times: canned and dried foods and sealable containers, salt, medicines (I’m betting the pharmacist will leave town), seeds, arms & ammunition, tool-repair tools, socks, barterables, fuels (propane, kerosene, lamp oil, gasoline for power tools), and more.
It’s one thing to think of these things now. I’m sure that if the Cataclysmic Event™ actually happened, I would develop a much longer and different list. But you can bet that I would be here, working on my list.

Ten years is a long time to consider. I can’t think of a natural disaster that would keep the country so unbalanaced that I’d be on my own for 10 years. An enemy invasion could mess things up for this long, but that’s much more involved than simply subsisting for 10 years or so.

4

Didn’t we have this discussion in 1999?

5

I’d die, since I do not presently own a firearm. Everyone else would take all they wanted from me, and I would starve. The firearm is the only way of protecting one’s property. Respect for other’s property rights goes down the tubes when such event occurs, all the theives come out and claim what they want. If the failure of technology includes firearms, I’ve got a chance, since I’m big and could take most people out unless they had fight training, like martial arts.

If I had a firearm, I would survive. I would kill those nearby who were without protection and steal their food, and surely that would last me long enough to wait out the crisis. My life is more important than theirs to me, I would kill them without hesitation if my own survival depended upon it.

I do not believe a bow and arrow would suffice, as it may not pack enough punch to kill anyone. A crossbow, on the other hand, might. Such a skill would be useful.

Eventually, if things did not recover, I would probably have to join a band of others who similiarly stole from their neighbors at the point of a gun (which would be like joining the U.S. government, pretty much at any time.)

Basically, I would value my own survival above any of yours. My own continuing existence would trump all, and I would do anything and everything to you people to survive.

Maybe I’d feel bad about it later…but I’d rather be alive to feel bad about it than be dead. Nothing is worth death. I would let every single human being on the planet die at my hand before I accepted my own death. As an athiest, I believe death is the end and therefore any existence is better than death.

That’s the most honest thing I’ve ever said, anywhere or anytime. Satisfy you?

6

RexDart wrote:

Would a lifetime of systematic and unceasing painful torture at the hands of irrational sadists be better to you than what you call death?

7

I’ve still got a stockpiled cave from y2k. I’m hoping for a chance to bust out my goodies from there nitorgen sealed containers and finally be the one to say I told you so.
It’s not far from here to the “wilds”. I suspect that most people would engage in some sort of cooperative efforts. I"ve heard that humans once survived, (for a short time), entirely without internal combustion and the internet.

8

Well, I just got done saying in a religious-themed thread that the only thing worse than cessation of existence would be eternal torture. So I’ll qualify my remarks in this thread with that caveat. Since there is nothing on Earth or of a material nature that could ever approach eternal torture, then continued existence is better than any situation that could actually occur.

Even that, I’m not so sure about. It’s a tossup in my mind, almost. On one level, existence has got to be better than no existence. On another level, an unending torturous existence is pretty frickin’ bad, and one might cry for the release that nonexistence would bring. As nonexistence is incomprehensible (nobody can picture it or really know what it would be like to not exist), it’s tough to tell. I know nonexistence is in my future, but thankfully the very nature of nonexistence means that I won’t have to deal with it, merely with the apprehension caused by my knowledge of its approach.

9

RexDart

I think you’ve raised an interesting issue for discussion. Rather than hijack this thread, I’ve taken it here. Your comments would be appreciated.

10

I’m with RexDart, but not quite so extreme.

I have access to firearms, and several people who I can depend on in this situation. While I am no farmer, and my training as a youth was more “How to make Napalm”, and “This is where you stab to keep them from screaming, if you have to” rather than how to gut and dress a deer, it would be necessary for me to locate people that have those skills.

The good thing is, the skills I do have, though rather rusty, clean up quick with use and would have an advantage in the Brave New World.

The trick would be avoiding RedDart, or worse SimonX.

11

Tristan,

You’d be welcome on my homestead!

12

I’d do whatever I could to cooperate woth the authorities in maintaining order and securing alternate means of survival.

Hey… I’m not an American.

13

The first thing I would do is gather whatever supplies I need and get myself and the family the hell out of dodge, there just wouldn’t be enough to go around anf things would get ugly really quickly.

Getting out could be problematic, especially if you were trying to do so with things that other people would want like food and other survival supplies. Several of those items would have to be rifles, shotguns, or other weapons so the use of force might be required.

Once we were out and away from what would be a dying city I would be heading out to the wilderness, as my brother just happens to live there I would try to locate him and other family members as to provide mutual support and security to one another. Going it alone would be almost impossible as I believe most people would form small cooperative groups… some nice and many… not so nice.

Barring being overun by another group we would probably make it. We know enough to be able to grow and store food, are able to hunt and fish, and have a broad range of useful skills. We’d have to find a doctor to join our new “tribe” as having a skilled medical person would be invaluable and perhaps even be something we could barter with other groups for other items we needed.

If we were going to be subjected to a long period of darkness and cold we might consider holing up and making other arrangements to acquire food. If a generator and fuel could be acquired we would be able to set up a growing operation using artificial lighting and raise small rodents such as rabbits or perhaps earthworms or other insects as an alternative source of protein.

Yep… I’d eat bugs.

Once the sun came out our growing operation wouldn’t be required to produce as much food but I am sure we could raise some other crops that people would be interested in trading for… :slight_smile:

14

Depends on the bow. One you make would be worthless but a hunting bow with broadhead arrow would probably do more damage than a bullet. Just think, would you rather have a inch lead piece go through you or a 18" metal spike with razors on the end stop halfway through you? Bows deserve some credit.

In the case of the OP. I have a collection of knives and swords in my house which would become quite valuable for trade and protection. We’ve got at least 6 months worth of wood stockpiled so heat wouldn’t be an immediate concern. Theres also a shotgun and rifle in the basement with a lot of spare ammo. It hasn’t been used in years so I’ll hope it still works. I’d get a community going, share food and supplies. We’d all probably move into the largest few houses and build a kind of shanty town. I’d be one of those trying to rebuild society.

15

I dont have any specific skills, but I am well-rounded enough that, if I could find a small band to fit in with that have well-rounded skills, I could survive. i’m athletic and hard-working, physically, and have enough common sense to stop us from doing anything stupid, and am intelligent enough to implement systems of edible plant recognition and planting if I could find documentation on them.

In addition, I have enough tactical common-sense to veto any incredibly stupid defense plans. I’m not all that strong, but I used to be able to hit a few coke cans out of a clip at a couple dozen yards or so.

Too bad my apartment doesnt allow firearms. I definitely want to own a rifle both for this and for personal protection in case of a break-in or a less serious city-wide civil disturbance.

16

Yeah, I see your location is Israel.

So perhaps you’d concoct a ficticious narrative by which your god had granted unto you my land, and then take over my land as if by right. You’d play off the sympathies of others and exploit that to gain the approval of your neighbors. Then you’d get indignant when I tried to reclaim my land and force you off, and you’d claim that you were merely defending yourself. Then you’d let me continue to live in my toolshed, meanwhile inviting your ideological comrades to relocate to said land and eventually take over my garden and all the area around the toolshed in which I was confined. Then perhaps you’d decide that I was getting uppity and impose a curfew preventing me from making any noise inside my toolshed after 7pm. Eventually a warmongering butcher might take over leadership of your oppressive cabal and decide to provoke me into taking action against you, giving you an excuse to finally destroy me.

Perhaps you’re not so frickin’ different from what you think Americans are after all, eh buddy?

17

Lucifer’s Hammer and Footfall, both by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, explore this theme. I think that they are among the best, if not THE best, post-apocalyptic novels out there.

As for my own chances of survival…I need several medications. I can do without the asthma and allergy meds, and my blood pressure would probably fall with the diet and exercise necessary after The Big One, but I will soon die without insulin, and severely crack up without Paxil. I’m legally blind without my glasses, and my arthritis is quite painful. On the other hand, I’m a very good shot. In fact, my husband will no longer shoot targets with me because he finds it demoralizing…his vision is something like 20/15 (which is better than “normal” vision) and even with correction, my eyes are no better than 20/40 and 20/55. I am adept at various crafts, including sewing, crocheting, knitting, candlemaking, soapmaking and carpentry. I can usually concoct a pretty tasty meal out of unlikely leftovers. I can butcher animals, and preserve foods. I have planned vegetable gardens and successfully managed them, though these were small family sized gardens. I also experimented with saving seeds for the next year. My results were mixed. I’m a pretty good healer, though not professional. I used to go camping and do very well. I can start a fire with just one match, or even no matches, if necessary.

It’s just too bad that I would die before I could use most of these skills.

18

Huh?

I’m just saying that I’m slightly less pessimistic than Americans seem to be - I believe that my neighbours will cooperate in times of crisis, and I don’t have this innate distrust of of government that is both your blessing and your curse. Look at the responses above: everybody’s first reaction is “every man for himself.” As I see it, it’s American idependence and self-relience taken to extremes.

So Rex… don’t try to bait me, OK? Your comments would not warrent response even if they were relevant to the matter at hand. Besides, I just lost an astronaut, and I’m in no mood to get into a pissing contest.

19

I just want to speak up for those Americans who do believe in cooperation and trust in their community. Certainly my first reaction to any kind of catastrophic societal breakdown would be to try to band together with my fellow citizens to figure out how we can all help each other.

I seem to remember that not long ago downtown Manhatten had to be evacuated rapidly on foot, and that for the most part people proceeded in an orderly manner, helped each other out, and generally showed concern and compassion for their fellow human beings. In fact, while there are jerks in any situation, in every crisis that I can recall, there are for more tales of heroism and self-sacrifice than of people immediately turning on each other.

I also believe that our system of laws and civic controls is not the only thing keeping people from ripping each other to shreds. Even in the face of hunger and great deprivation, human dignity can survive.

Condolences on the lost of Ilan Ramon. He sounds like a really amazing person.

20

You’ll note that my post was made a full 9 hours before anybody heard anything about the shuttle or the Israeli astronaut, so don’t imply that I was being insensitive about that.

No matter what I think of his government, the death of the Israeli astronaut is every bit the tragedy as the death of our own in my mind, I assure you that. I am putting a temporary moratorium on my usual critical remarks of Israeli government policy in the aftermath of this, out of respect and an effort to keep in good taste.

Back to the topic, I agree with Lynn that Lucifer’s Hammer was one of the best that explored this topic. It basically gave me a handbook on what to expect, I think it realistically assesses the motivations of people in such a situation. The most telling incident in the book was when the researcher finally makes it to his hideaway and finds it taken over by others who won’t let him in, and threaten to kill him, the fact that the researcher is the owner of the property is of no signifigance to them.