As an anti-Semite (because that’s what I must be, right?), I think the US would be better off partnering with the Muslim countries than Israel. There’s more of them, they hold more oil, and ultimately they are going to be more important to us in the future than a smallish country that was created only about 60 years ago.
Any military benefits we get from being friends with Israel is rendered moot by the fact that their very existence creates military conflicts. Without them, we wouldn’t NEED to have so much bases and troops always hanging around the ME. Without them, the conflicts that appear imminent every decade wouldn’t exist. The US would be far better throwing their entire support behind more moderate ME countries like Turkey or Jordan or and just being neutral towards Israel than being a fully ally to them. It doesn’t make sense
As for values, they share some of what we have come to understand as American values, but some shared values is no substitute for real dollars, lives, and time spent in the ME solving the problem Israel continually creates.
I think Israel is fine to exist, but they shouldn’t get help from us. If they can stand on their own, fine. If they can’t, oh well.
Oil is a commodity. It’s pointless to ignore your values (e.g.-supporting brutal, repressive dictatorships) just because you want to be on good terms with an oil-rich state. Those state’s economies are dependent on oil sales - they will always sell it to us, no matter how much they dislike us.
[QUOTE=YogSosoth]
As an anti-Semite (because that’s what I must be, right?), I think the US would be better off partnering with the Muslim countries than Israel. There’s more of them, they hold more oil, and ultimately they are going to be more important to us in the future than a smallish country that was created only about 60 years ago.
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Leaving aside the ‘anti-Semite’ well poisoning part, who would you suggest? We already have sort of quasi-partnerships with Kuwait and Saudi, as well as (in theory, at least wrt the amount of money we fork over) countries like Egypt. How has that worked out for us in the past? AFAIK, none of those Muslim countries WANT a closer, more connected partnership with the US. Many of them are uncomfortable with the current set up as it is.
That segues into the answer to the OP. Why have an alliance with Israel? Well, because Israel is actually interested in a closer, more connected partnership with the US, and we need to have at least one strong ally in the region, since said region is vital to our national interests since it’s got all that oil stuff we need. It doesn’t hurt that Israel is one of the few democracies in the region either, but mainly it’s because Israel has actively sought out and supports (enthusiastically, especially popularly with the citizens of the country) an alliance with the US. Doesn’t mean that we always get along as bestest buddies, or that we don’t do things that annoy or piss them off (or vice versa), but in the main our goals coincide…which is why you have an alliance in the first place. I don’t think our national goals and interests very closely coincide with any other nation in the region, to be honest.
Has anyone heard the idea that there is a certain amount of pandering by politicians to some evangelical Christians on Israel, due to the latter’s belief that the Messiah will not return to earth in the absence of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East? Politicians don’t want to keep people from being called home to be with God, thus they support Israel so as not to be seen preventing that from happening.
One problem with this analysis is that, historically, Israel did exist without any help from the US. Prior to the '67 War, the US wasn’t a de facto ally of Israel (in fact, in the '53 war, the US sided with the Egyptians and essentially threatened Israel and its then-allies the UK and France to back off).
The cost, though, was instability - reasonably frequent Arab-Israeli wars. These wars had the potential to spread & draw in superpower intervention during the Cold War. Hence, the decision was taken by the US to support, not only Israel, but also Israel’s major adversary - Egypt (it is often overlooked in these kinds of discussions that the US offers massive aid to Egypt as well as Israel). By so doing, the US hamstrings the possibility for a truly major ME Arab-Israeli war, because without Egypt, no such war is likely - aside from exchanging missiles with Iran.
You may ask, why is ME instability a problem? The answer is that such instability would likely impact the US adversely in all sorts of ways.
An interesting issue, on which I posted in another thread, is the fact that due to recent discoveries Israel is sitting on potentially massive natural gas reserves in the Med (along with its ally Cyprus) - which again has the possibility to create lots of problems, as the Turks also want in.
A diplomat from Kuwait on a talk show after the invasion and before the Gulf War was asked who would pay for US involvement. He said, “We’ll send you a check.”
I don’t think they ever did. My point being that I don’t believe any of the countries in the Mid East have any common interests or reason to be pals save Israel.
It’s like the joke, too long to tell here, where Chester protests Marshall Dillon’s efforts to single handedly rescue Miss Kitty against impossible odds.
“Matthew, I like Miss Kitty a lot, but she’s just an ol’ whore lady.”
“Yep Chester, but she’s the only one in town.”
“What do they think we are going to do? Drink it?” - some Iraqi, shortly before America’s conquest of Iraq
Yes. Specifically, many Christians think that the Jews have to be there so that they can be slaughtered in accordance to Biblical prophecy. If they aren’t there to be slaughtered, then biblical prophecy can’t be fulfilled.
Maybe I parsed it wrong but maybe you meant “at least two strong allies”? Turkey is in the region. It’s a stronger ally. They’re assisting us in Afghanistan. They house our air force and naval bases. They warned us off the Iraq War. They’ve been on our side since about the time that Israel came into existence. They’re in NATO with the second largest army. They’re assisting us with the Syrian rebels. They assisted us with Libya. They have some of our nukes. They don’t sabre rattle and attempt to get us into conflict.
Please back this up by providing a list of Israeli-American shared goals that is longer than shared Turko-American goals. Hell, make the list longer than shared Saudi-American goals.
I’m a Turcophile, but they certainly have been quite aggressive and been willing to rattle their sabers.
They invaded, occupied and engaged in ethnic cleansing in Cyprus and continue to rattle their sabers both there, with the Greeks, and with the Kurds, going so far as to invade Iraq just a few years ago.
They certainly treat their ethnic minorities better than the Israelis do, but that’s hardly saying much.
Yeah, this is what we are supposed to think, but no… this is irrelevant also.
We have friends in the area. Israel does not have the ability to help the US in any way in a war scenario, so for a friend in the area, they are more a liability than an asset.
+1
Israel is a joke of an ally. We can’t use their country as a base of operations, for fear of retaliation by the neighboring countries. It would be the perfect excuse for a country itching to throw a bomb onto Israel and having the moral reasoning to do so.
No, Israel has run it’s course as anything to the US but a thorn in the side of our foreign policy. Do you honestly think the US cares about Israel being a democracy in the ME? Why? We don’t care what a country’s politics are. Look at our relationship with China. They are supposedly one of the most oppressive communist regimes in the world, yet they permit our companies to use their cheap labor force to crank out cheap products for our walmart economy. We also borrow so much money from them, you’d think we are best buddies.
Israel is a political football here in the US because of the big m. Money. Politicians pander to jewish lobbies for big donations, and those donations turn into policy-friendly action toward israel. It’s a simple equation, really.
But let’s face it. There are no real reasons to really care about Israel. Yes, they are a democracy. big deal. The US does business with Democracies… but they also do business with kingdoms, and communists regimes. Wherever the best deal is. that’s where you’ll find us. Embracing Israel has, in fact, probably cost us more in money and american lives than any other relationship we have ever had.
If oil dried up in the ME tomorrow, I’m guessing Israel would take on a much less important role in our day to day policies.
I am really weary of the idea that Israel is going to be shoved off the map. It’s not going to happen. That’s just overblown propaganda to get folks to believe that if we don’t stay involved in the survival of Israel, it will disappear tomorrow.
Okay they rattle their sabers quite a bit. I won’t try to list off the recent attempts at settlement and peace with all these parties because if the deal turns sour or the game changes a bit then it easily goes back to threats.
Support for Israel has more to do with US domestic politics than anything we get in return on the international stage. Not only do blocs of Jewish voters support Israel in key battleground states for the presidential election, but also Christian fundamentalists see Israel as important for the apocalypse to come (Al Franken noted that upon the apocalypse, the Jewish/Christian right alliance will likely fall apart). In short America is Israel’s ally, but I’m not sure you can say that Israel is America’s ally.
;p It wasn’t well-poisoning, it was a joke to head off the inevitable accusations.
As to the other countries, I believe our support of Israel makes those countries dislike us. I’ve no expectations that they’ll be the Middle East version of our ally the UK, but a lot the reason why they hate us is because of Israel. Get rid of that dead weight and things will be better (notice I said “better” not “we’ll be buddies and they’ll be putting an American flag on the Kabaa”).
I think Israel provides too much of a risk for us internationally. Right now, the fact that people even have to debate what would happen if Israel bombs Iran without our permission, whether we’d be dragged into a war, is a perfect example. We may share more of our culture and government with Israel, but they have their interests and we have ours, and when they don’t run parallel, they have the power to massively and negatively affect our country. I don’t want that albatross around our necks, threatening to choke us if we don’t make the right moves. Its not in America’s interests
We have the power to shift the balance away from Israel threatening to attack a few countries and causing a lot of disruption. Right now, if Israel attacks Iran, all bets are off and instability and war is pretty much guaranteed. Israel can do that because of near lockstep support of from the US. Now imagine we are neutral to Israel and support the other countries that can provide us with a cheap oil. We’re the superpower here, Israel can’t threaten us, and if supported, for example, Iran in case of an Israeli attack, the Israelis would have to think long and hard if they can live with the ire of the US. Of course this may embolden countries like Iran, but I’m on record saying that they want a bomb to protect themselves and are no threat, and if they attack Israel, its not really our problem because we can get plenty of oil with all of the other, suddenly not so hostile ME countries that don’t hate us because of our fanatical support of their hated enemy
Seriously? That’s the one thing you take away from that? Why do you care so much?
Well, during the Cold War the Soviets were very anti-Israel (except for very early on when they thought Israel might go Communist), so the US would be obligated to disagree.
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Maybe I parsed it wrong but maybe you meant “at least two strong allies”? Turkey is in the region. It’s a stronger ally. They’re assisting us in Afghanistan. They house our air force and naval bases. They warned us off the Iraq War. They’ve been on our side since about the time that Israel came into existence. They’re in NATO with the second largest army. They’re assisting us with the Syrian rebels. They assisted us with Libya. They have some of our nukes. They don’t sabre rattle and attempt to get us into conflict.
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Turkey is in the region, and yes, I didn’t include them though I should have since they are in the Middle East. Yes, they are a NATO ally, and while I’d say that they are more Europe’s good and strong ally more than the US, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t also our ally. And they are a democracy as well.
I’d say wrt Syria that they have their own agenda that just happens to coincide with ours (somewhat), than that they are helping us with our own.
So, you were unsure if I recalled Turkey, and now you demand a cite since it’s obvious that I did it deliberately, ehe? You really love parsing stuff like this in these threads, don’t you? I’ve been to Turkey (Israel as well…and more than a few other ME countries), and it was a great place no doubt. But from the perspective of the people actually living there, I’d say that the US has more popular support of the majority of citizens in Israel than in Turkey…though on an individual basis (i.e. individual Americans) it’s probably similar. Sort of like how the average European feels about Turkey…verse how they feel about Israel.
As far as overall goals at the nation state level, I don’t think I’ll play that game. I’m sure that the list of such goals is similar between the US and Turkey as between the US and Israel…probably longer, since Turkey is in NATO.
So, you were unsure if I recalled Turkey, and now you demand a cite since it’s obvious that I did it deliberately, ehe? You really love parsing stuff like this in these threads, don’t you? I’ve been to Turkey (Israel as well…and more than a few other ME countries), and it was a great place no doubt. But from the perspective of the people actually living there, I’d say that the US has more popular support of the majority of citizens in Israel than in Turkey…though on an individual basis (i.e. individual Americans) it’s probably similar. Sort of like how the average European feels about Turkey…verse how they feel about Israel.