Assuming that the underlining problem between the U.S. and the Arab world is the support of Isreal. (I know thats a big assumption). Then would you support dropping all ties with Isreal for a guarantee of $1/gallon of gas(actually the coresponding barrel of oil price) for as long as we want it?
I know the argument would be that they would just go in a squeeze out Isreal and then raise the price of oil. But can’t they do that raise the price whenever they want now anyways?
I know we didn’t go to war with Iraq over Kuwait because we love them. It was a rational response to perserve the American way of life. Can the same be said of supporting Isreal?
Well, Israel might win the first war. But they are a fairly small country. They get aid from the US, but they also purchase most of their weapons from the US. If they couldn’t do that, most of their military would become obsolete very soon.
Also, most of the Arab states around Israel no longer have much of a desire to attack Israel. But if the US stopped supporting Israel then suddenly the barriers to war are lowered drastically. They no longer have to worry about what the US might do if they attacked. They no longer have to worry about US supplies to Israel.
So, war might not happen for a year or two. Israel might win the first one, but there would be another one and another one. And Israel only has to lose once. Once the Israeli military is defeated, expect the massacres to begin.
Hm. On the one hand, we’ve got a long term friend and ally. One of the very few democracies in the middle east. A country that appears to be trying, desperately, to do the right thing with regard to ethnic and racial strife.
On the other hand, we’ve got cheap gas.
Yep, sell them out. Hey, can I get an even better deal if I throw in my sister, too?
ok the U.S. should go in first with tactical strikes and take out their nukes then disown them? We don’t seem to have any problems with tactical strikes against people that have nukes that are a possible threat to us. So if we disown them and they have nukes then they become a threat.
I think it is debateable whether Isreal is a friend/Ally. They certainly accept our aid but once that was cutoff , I guess we would see how friendly they were.
Please give examples of them doing the right thing with ethnic and racial strife. I take that bombing suspected offices of palestinians ends and ethnic and racial strife.
It’s not only big, it’s completely incorrect, and it can lead to Anti-Semitism. DON’T make this assumption. Those who hate us in the Arab world hate us for our freedom, and this would have happened even if we had no ties to Israel. To them, we are the “Great Satan”, remember? Do you think they call us that solely because of our support for Israel?
Well actually I think the anti U.S. stuff is based on Isreal and Oil (how the oil companies and govt came in and screwed things up when oil was first discovered). If we didn’t have a local presense then we wouldn’t be the Great Satan. Is Australia, England, France,… little satans? Italy is the home of Christinanity and its not a target for the Muslins.
Are you saying we should protect Isreal because of the high number of Jews? Is it ok to be anti-palenstian but not anti-isralie? Would you shed a tear if every Jew in Isreal was killed? Well then you shed the same tear if every Palestinian was killed? What is the difference?
Osama bin Laden hates the US because non-Muslim troops from the US set foot in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War.
If you will remember, we fought the Gulf War on behalf of Kuwait, and to protect Saudi Arabia and the rest of the countries of the Middle East from being invaded by Saddam Hussein. So even the latest attack on the US is not really as a result of our support of Israel (please note the spelling).
That having been said - no, I would not sell my friends’ lives for a dollar. Neither would I sell my children as slaves or my wife as a prostitute for even a very large sum of money.
Perhaps you would like to step into the Pit, and I can make my opinion of your offer clear? I have several terms for those who can be bribed into betraying innocent people into torture and death.
I am not arguing for it. I was asking the question. In a perfect world everyone would love us and Israel (thanks for the spelling help). IMHO, the only reason we had the Gulf war was to protect our oil supply. That being said, I was very supportive of the war because the evil must be stamped out, poor Kuwait must be protected, and I want my gasoline.
This is not related to the particular terrorist group that did the bombing. But if the rest of the arab world tolerated us then would they support such groups? We seem to want everything, Israel and Oil. I was just asking if supporting Israel was worth it in terms of country A and country B. Strategy wise. forget that Israel is country A or B. I have no friends in Israel (jews or muslims). or enemies either.
Who are the innocent people you are referring to? Muslims or Jews?
Another thing our country wouldn’t be as blessed as it is now. In the Bible there is a promise that God would bless any nation that is Israel ally. I would say we were pretty blessed for being such a young nation don’t you?
So no I wouldn’t sell them(Israel) out for cheap gas. I would rather invade those other whacko countries overthrow their gov’ts and make them our states and take their oil.
Well, considering the Italian word for muslin cloth is ‘mussolina’, ultimately derived from the name of the Iraqi city Mosul, I think that exporting muslin to Italy could be a possibly successful financial venture.
(Ok, ok, bad joke.)
Trying to summarize the antipathy that some around the world feel into “Well, the US supports Israel, so they hate us” is dangerous and wrong. Furthermore, if the US were to abandon Israel arbitrarily, let alone for a modern version of 30 pieces of silver, would any of our other allies continue to stand with us?
Bill, your desire to “invade those other whacko countries overthrow their gov’ts and make them our states and take their oil” could only have come from you.
Thank you Shodan. Of course they (OBL in particular) hate us for reasons other than support for Israel. Did the OP forget the Gulf War?
Anyway, I wasn’t even addressing the OP’s idiotic proposition. I resent even being posed idiotic rhetorical questions like “would I be upset if all of the Jews, or all of the Palestinians died?”. Of course I would. But that has nothing to do with the dangerous suggestion that the U.S.'s alliance with Israel is even remotely a cause of this attack.
Justin, we are allied with Israel for many reasons. Read up a little on the circumstances of Israel’s formation (the 1948 incarnation). You’ll see that we have a kinship with them.
One could just as easily claim that Salt Lake City, Utah is the home of Christianity and not a target for terrorists. (Although, between being part of the U.S.A. and the host for the Winter Olympics it probably is).
The Vatican is the center for one denomination of the Christian faith, Catholicism. Perhaps you could ask our current President, a Baptist I believe, if he recognizes Rome as the “home of Christianity.”
Fair enough. The answer is No, as much for moral reasons as practical ones.
As was I. I would add to your list “that I didn’t want Saddam Hussein to have control of so much oil, which he would sell and use the money to build nuclear weapons and then blackmail Saudi Arabia into surrendering, to be followed by an attack on Israel, followed by (quite literally) the rest of the world”. My opinion is that Bush Sr. prevented World War III, in the most literal sense of the term. But he didn’t do it by calculating how much a barrel he was willing to pay for oil. There is such a thing as a matter of principle.
I don’t see why we can’t have both friendship with Israel and civil relationships with the other OPEC nations. To be perfectly honest, the ones trying to get us to choose seem to be mostly terrorists. Saudi Arabia, after all, expelled Osama bin Laden for his anti-government activities. One of the problems our current President Bush has is that many of the countries in the Middle East have large, fundamentalist factions who create severe problems inside their own borders. Consider that Sadat was assassinated by his own troops. The prime minister of Israel was shot by a fanatic Jew (why can’t I think of his name? Help, anyone?).
Yes. If the rest of the Middle East is allowed to attack Israel, everyone will suffer, no matter who wins.
I do not think your OP is headed down the path of peace, come what might. The idea that we can avoid war by abandoning our allies, or being intimidated into doing so, or by being perceived as weak, was tried rather extensively during the 1930s by Neville Chamberlain. We all know the results.
And if I can mention it without invoking Godwin’s law - many of the countries of the Middle East were on the side of the Axis powers during WWII. This is one of the major reasons given to justify the creation of the modern state of Israel. That, and the Holocaust.
I do wonder about Israel being our ally. I think if we would have said “England, you are wrong to dump the Jews in Israel” and supported the Palestinians by giving them every weapon they can hold, they would be our best friends.
I always try these scenarios like a board game. no morality.
I get too passifistic (is that a word?) if I think of all the children killed by each scenario.
BTW, I could easily see that the muslim world would think of Rome with the Pope as the center of christianity.