That’s true enough, and the US intervention there (as part of a multi-national peace-keeping force) demonstrates the complexity of ME affairs. Although the Israelis were certainly involved as a player, invading Lebanon, they were hardly the only player - the Iranians, the Syrians, all meddled conclusively in Lebanese affairs - each supporting their own internal Lebanese faction(s). The Israelis supported the Christian Phalangists, for example.
Note that the alleged motivation for the infamous Beruit barracks bombing, which killed hundreds of marines, was not simply that the US was allied to Israel, but rather variously attributed to:
That the force was too partial to the local Marionite Catholic faction (and other, Israeli supported factions) in Lebanon;
That the US had supported Saddam against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war; and
That the force had shelled Muslim and Druze positions.
Again, this gets back to the main theme: the ME cannot be understood as simply ‘everyone against Israel’, and changing attitudes towards Israel would not change the problem. The problem is that any involvement in the region will annoy someone, if not everyone, and as a superpower the US generally has no choice but to get involved.
This point is amply demonstrated by the US involvement in Lebanon in 82-84.
They weren’t ‘hanging around’ and they were not based there. They were deployed for peacekeeping purposes. There have been US forces deployed as part of Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai since 1982 as part of the UN mission observing the peace between Egypt and Israel as well. They hardly qualify as what YogSosoth was talking about either, which is the continued military deployment and basing in the Middle East of US troops for purposes other than UN peacekeeping missions. The permanent deployment and basing of US forces in the Middle East started in 1990 as a direct result of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which again has nothing to do with Israel.
They’re not all nuts you know, and I wouldn’t support all of them. Let’s take Iran for instance. Ruled by religious fanatics, hates America for various things, including that whole Shah business, and supports terrorist activities throughout the ME. However, it has a fairly pro-west population, a youthful segment that’s more interested in burgers than burkas. They are a a power in the ME, wants to use that power to expand their influence, and basically is the big dog in their neighborhood when you take everything into account. It would make more sense for us to support them than Israel, which, while WE don’t consider some of their activities terrorism, can certainly be judged with an objective eye as much too severe to label them the only shining democracy in the ME. They’ve got blood on their hands, same as everyone else, but they’re a tiny minority country in an area where most of their neighbors hate them. I’d rather be friends with Iran than Israel. Over the long run, I think the US would benefit more from that alliance than one with Israel, which has given us untold numbers of headaches.
Right, and you’re not? Maybe you are the one pulling assumptions out of thin air. True, other ME countries hate each other, but you are mistaking buzz for reality
You’re the one using it, what do you think it means? Maybe we should make enemies with Canada. For no reason. Then, when people say it doesn’t make sense, tell them they’re only appeasing Canadian anger. Respond to the first sentence in that part you quoted: How is the US benefiting from our alliance with Israel?
Wouldn’t it make more sense to do the same with the other non-Israel countries than pick the one in the group that the others hate and try to do an alliance with them?
I’m sure that if we drop Israel, cozy up real nice to some ME countries, after about 50 years of this, they’ll have a change of heart. You seem to think the Muslims are incorrigible. Why would you think that there’s nothing at all we can do to improve relations? Talk about appeasement, you’re taking a completely fatalistic and defeatist attitude.
In 50 years, the US and Iran will be allies if we drop Israel, support Iran, and apologize for what we did to them in the past.
I didn’t say it was the ONLY cause of conflict between the US and the ME. That’s what you inferred. Please infer the other way, that there are plenty of causes but I just didn’t list them. Thanks, we cool? ;p
Whoa. Again, you gotta stop right now and do some inferring the other way. The thing about bases was a whole other topic, don’t connect it to Israel, ok?
Here’s onefrom last year, originally discussing a banned guy named mac, who An Gadai speculated was banned for being an anti-semite. Funny thing, the pit thread itself descends into a discussion of Stink Fish Pot, who used some words people consider anti-semitic, and couldn’t believe he didn’t think the same.
Here’s onethat started on a discussion of Jimmy Carter and his criticisms of Israeli policy, comparing it to apartheid, in which Askia makes the same joke I made in the 3rd post. From the beginning, people argued over the semantics of apartheid and Israeli policy, trying to state that the difference between the two, and how wrong Carter was, makes him anti-semitic when he makes that accusation. It has an appearance by Sevastopol, which I’ll ignore per your request, but by the last page RTFirefly is accused of being just like Sev, the anti-semite
Finn, of course, takes the opportunity to rail on someone who doesn’t love Israel as much as he does here. Lots of innuendos because he can’t simply jump up on a table and shout “Anti-Semite!”, one because its against the rules, and two because his knees aren’t what they used to be
And here’s a post about the Olympics this summer discussing whether or not it was proper to have a tribute to the slain Israeli athletes in Munich on the anniversary of the killings. By the end, the words “anti-semite” had been thrown around like it was confetti
Anyways, the point of all this isn’t to see who’s an anti-semite and who isn’t. The point is that some of you people have no sense of humor, and need to lighten up. If I preface my criticisms of Israel with a joke about not being an anti-semite, you’re supposed to ignore the joke and just read the words (and not infer things about them).
We really should start by answering the question of what we get out of this whole Israeli alliance thing and how things would change if we were to partner up with, say, Turkey or Iran or Kuwait with the same zeal. I think its definitely worth discussing
Not to let facts get in the way of a good fiction, but I’m already free to say “your argument is anti-Semitic” . But feel free to run with your argument that me not calling someone an anti-Semite is proof of how I called someone an anti-Semite.
Seriously? Thats your issuemwith my post? Cool! It worked!
Honestly, i didnt (and dont) think about it, i have been known from time to time not to cwpitalize god, christmas, or a thousand other words. But in thinking about it, it probably can be summed up into one word. Laziness. On my ipad, i suck at typing, so if i dont think about a word needing to be capatalized, i dont usually bother. And if i do, i probably do it inconsistently.
But for the record, what is the protocol on capatalizing the J? And does everyone follow it correctly?
If that is the biggest issue for you, i think there is hope in settling the disagreements and conflicts in the ME. Make sure the muslims and jews respect their wishes when it comes to caps. Or capital letters.
I would apologize for offending people for this, but 1) there was no intent, so as Wilford Brimley would say “ABSENCE OF MALICE” and 2) i dont think anyone but you cared, and 3) i think its a non-issue. I have read arguments on this board regarding when to use “jew” or “jewish” for crying out loud. Ive heard jewish people (or jews if you prefer… Or Jews (hey! I cani can capitalize a “j”)) say both are right, neither are right, it deoends on the context, and who cares?
And, here, you create an opportunity to slam another poster over what was actually, (given the topic and the typical reactions it engenders), a relatively restained discussion.
Let’s leave the sniping and pot shots for The BBQ Pit and refrain from taking shots at posters in place of actually discussing the topic.
Didn’t we overthrow an elected civilian government in Iran once?
Didn’t we used to support folks like Noriega and Saddam Hussein and all sorts of other unsavory characters?
We started supporting Israel because of the cold war and now there is a constituency in the USA that makes it politically impossible not to. Its kind of like the embargo on Cuba but not nearly as funny.
On the flip side we have generally abandoned our cold war dictator allies (deposed several of them) and held on to our democratic cold war allies (see also South Korea).
So are Qatar, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and a long list of other arab states that DON’T border Israel
Other than the safety and security of Israel, what goals are those?
Has Israel been helping us against al Qaeda (it probably wouldn’t help our cause, that is how toxic they are).
There are a few poster who think that any criticism for Israel is rooted in anti-semitism. And a LOT of posters who “just ask question” like
“gee, there are so many evil countries in the world and you decide to criticize Israel, I wonder why? What is it about Israel that is different than those other countries? I wonder what that is?”
I stopped posting on Israel threads for a long time after being accused of anti-semitism one too many times. Its part of the price you pay for criticizing Israel on this board.
So you think that a country that is the only nuclear power in the region and has sucessfully won several wars with its neighbors (and is only in better relative shape today than it was back then) faces the realistic danger of being “wiped off the map”
Why? Because some guys in Hamas who aren’t even strong enough to protect their own sovereignty from construction equipment say so? That must mean America is in mortal danger too.
Now compare Israel’s situation to South Korea. They are technically still at war with a neighbor run by people who are AT LEAST as fucking crazy as hamas. AND those crazy fuckers have the nuke.
Can we stop with the theatrics about Israel being in danger of being wiped off the map?
There are a few posters who think the Illuminati is real.
Without questioning your paraphrase, I will simply point out that one can be bigoted against a nation without being racist against the ethnic/racial group which identifies with that nation. Many people, for instance, wouldn’t trust a Nigerian businessman but that has nothing to do with anti-black racism. That says nothing about ignorant people joining a cause celebre, stupid people just running with whatever sounds good, or decent people who’re the victims of misinformation and deception from disreputable sources. Just off the top of my head.
In other words, if someone displays a general garment, it’s quite odd for you to claim it’s cut to one specific fit.
Which was zero times on the Dope. Ever.
To be fair, we are only counting this universe. You may be correct in another universe.
I’ve criticized Israel plenty of times and I don’t recall ever being called one.
If what you’re saying is true it should be very easy to name names and link to posts of them making such statements. Note criticizing some criticism of Israel as being rooted in anti-Semitism doesn’t count.
Do you imagine what you wrote isn’t still visible? Again, I inferred nothing. Let’s take a look again at what you wrote:
Again, this is patently untrue. The US does not have any bases or troops hanging around the Middle East because of Israel. None.
The banned poster in question wished “A happy Zyklon-B to all of you”. Sorry, that’s actual anti-Semitism, not some poor innocent being wrongfully accused of being anti-Semitic.
Where? I can’t find RTFirefly being called an anti-Semite anywhere on the last page, and **Sevvy **was quote clearly an anti-Semite. He was finally banned for it.
That was a pit thread, not a debate. 2) By your own admission, ‘innuendos’ were made, nobody was called an anti-Semite. 3) As far as I’m aware of there are no rules against calling someone an anti-Semite in the pit.
This is just silly. Yes, the word anti-Semite is being thrown around like confetti, but not as an accusation. It’s being bandied about the same way you used it in this thread, by people preemptively announcing that “After all, the anti-semite card is a popular argument against those who do not follow the pro-Israel line 100%” when no such accusation had been made. Finn is accused of having said it when he clearly said no such thing, rather he said the opposite: “Simply for the record, I believe we should view this as an instance of anti-Israel bigotry (condoning or endorsing, depending on how you view it) and not as anti-antisemitism.”
Again, do you think what you posted isn’t still there? Trying to pass it off as a joke doesn’t wash; you were poisoning the well by declaring that you must be an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel, not joking about not being an anti-Semite. I’ve read your words quite clearly, I’ve inferred nothing.
Wow. I don’t think Iran has any interest at all in buddying up with the US, the US has a much closer partnership with Turkey and an actual alliance with them as co-members of NATO, and the US had bases in, troops permanently deployed to, and a defensive arrangement with them from 1991-2003 to protect against further Iraqi aggression. The US has no alliance with Israel, just a close relationship and ties. As I said in the other thread, if Syria were to invade Israel tomorrow, the US would not militarily intervene. If Syria attacked Turkey tomorrow, under Article 5 it would be an act of aggression against all of NATO and the US would be obliged to go to war with Syria.
I don’t claim to be an expert on the Korean situation, but it seems to me that there is much animosity between governments and less between people. In fact, when America was playing North Korea at the world cup some time ago, my dad’s South Korean coworker (working in the US) was cheering for NK. If that’s the kind of relationship they have, I don’t think South Korea is in danger of being nuked. Taken over by a sufficiently militarized North Korea, sure, but not outright demolished.
Between Israel and its neighboring countries, on the other hand, lies ethnic and religious hatred. Those two are more conducive to the kind of mass destruction that a nuke would bring. I’m pretty sure if Hamas had one they’d use it against any Israeli target that didn’t have a Muslim holy site within fallout distance. It’d be in accordance with their charter, doncha know.
So, you’d support Iran, even though as you yourself acknowledge, segments of the “pro-western” youthful population hates its fanatic, repressive theocratic government? Who is hated and feared by all its neighbours, worse than Israel is? And who already hates the US and has nothing in common with it?
This is your great plan for building goodwill in the middle east?
“No, you” isn’t an argument.
I’m using it in the normal sense of “the policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace”.
I take it you do not know much about current events in the ME. And you haven’t been reading this thread carefully.
Otherwise, you would perhaps know that the US does have close ties with other countries in the ME - particularly with Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.
Here’s a question for you: in the ME, which nation is the US formally allied to? In the ME, which nation has US troops stationed on its soil?
The answer to neither of these questions, BTW, is “Israel”.
Again, read the above (and this thread).
I am not taking a “defeatist” attitude, I’m simply pointing out that your position is absurd.
In 50 years, if the US followed your preferred policy, chances are the US would be apologizing to the people of Iran for supporting the vicious theocrats the Iranians booted out - just as the US has been apologizing for supporting the Shah.
I know this is not addressed to me, but I simply can’t let this howler go unremarked.
Once again - the US is a formal ally of Turkey and is not a formal ally of Israel. The US has gone to war to protect Kuwait (remember the first gulf war?) and has not gone to war to protect Israel.
My suggestion: before you begin “discussion” on these issues, learn a bit about the history and current events in the region - because an informed discussion is more fruitful.
People say this but I don’t understand how this is true. When you have Israel deporting Africans out of their country to “maintain the Jewish character of the State” you’re stacking the deck in your favor. It’s no different than if Republican Governor of Ohio started to deport people from Cleveland, Columbus, and Toledo in order to maintain “Republican character of the State”. Israel is not a democracy, it’s *Jewish democracy *- that is, a democratic enshrined in the the betterment and superiority of the majority.
I’d say there are many reasons, many somewhat crosslinked:
One that appears to be of the most common sense ones is it’s a valuable region of the world and Israel appears to be the most like minded to the US mindset, therefore a natural ally. This playing on xenophobia.
Politically there are many people who feel a connection to the Judeo/Christian roots and feel Islam is a threat and unstable.
Religiously scriptures (via the Bible) say all that support Israel will be blessed all that come against Israel will be cursed (or something to that effect)
Historical, Israel has a rich culture valued all over the world as a pilgrimage site and has the appearance of allowing free access to anyone, Islam has been painted as a restrictive force and perhaps many feel that non-islam people would lose access to these sites.
Your statement mischaracterizes the actions of the Israeli government; they’re not finding African families to kick out. Instead, they’re deporting African migrants who came to the country illegally (similar to how the US deports illegal Mexican immigrants when they are caught). Israel is a much smaller nation than the US and therefore cannot support the incoming tide of refugees. I think that for most people making policy decisions, the policy is a solution to a logistical, rather than racial, problem.
That said, there are people who want to keep Africans out on racial grounds, and they should be ashamed of themselves and their blindness to recent history.
This is, of course, a complete mischaracterization of the current problem. Israel is considering what to do about a tide of illegal immigrants fleeing problems in Africa. Considering Israel’s size, it cannot accept them all, even if it wanted to.
While Israel’s response may well be the wrong one, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel’s status as a democracy, any more than the US deporting illegal immigrants means it is not a democracy.
You know, you’re right. When I read that again, it does sound like I was only saying we have bases in the ME because of Israel. I don’t believe that and I was probably too eager to prove a point, so I apologize about that.
But the Gulf war was a long time ago. Iraq’s transformed and Saddam’s gone. If Saddam was the reason we put bases or aircraft carriers in the ME, those reasons are long gone. Once the troops and equipment and advisers are out of Iraq, I would favor a total withdrawn of all American military presence there. There’s no one we need to attack and no one we need to protect. Of course, with our Navy, its laughably easy to quickly get a contingent of fighters anywhere in the world. I don’t think Iran would ever feel safe due to that fact
He was being compared to Sev. It was a backdoor way to accuse him of anti-semitism. If someone compared you to Hitler, they are not saying the similarities are due to bad mustache choice
I didn’t know I was supposed to limit my findings to non-Pit threads. If you recall, I made the joke because I said discussions often turn to accusations of anti-semitism. That’s as valid in GD as it is in the Pit. Besides, its a pointless nitpick. If someone thinks you’re anti-semitic in GD but can’t say it, it doesn’t change the fact that he still thinks you are one and will argue as if you are one.
You give him more credit than I would. Nevertheless, I consider those discussions to devolve into name-calling, so that’s why I “poisoned the well” with my joke. Anyways, to me its just a joke, just ignore it if you don’t believe it
I think its nice to start off a serious conversation with a joke. Don’t blame me if some people (you) want to treat the joke as the whole discussion
I wish you’d pay more attention to the serious parts of my posts as you do dissecting the joke parts. Did I say they wanted to do be buddies now? Did I say they were going to do it soon, or had any interest in it? No, that’s completely irrelevant.
Again, the point is, right NOW, Israel’s alliance isn’t helping the US. By treating them neutrally, and putting our resources into wooing a different country like Iran, maybe 50 years from now we would be better off as a country in our foreign policy than if we stuck by Israel. What has Israel ever brought the US except bags of cash with the dollar symbol on it for our politicians through lobbies? What have they helped us with except nearly dragging us into war time and time again? That will not change now, or in the next 50 years.
But imagine a partnership with Iran. Lets say we do all we can to win their friendship. In 50 years, Iran’s a big trading partner with us in the ME. Whatever influence we exerted on Israel could be done with Iran, a much bigger economy and influential country. Through economic and cultural ties, it would also moderate their government, if only slightly, so that we wouldn’t be afraid if they do get a nuke (how afraid are we of India attacking the US or its allies? The same can be achieved with Iran). In 50 years, with Israel surviving just fine due to their military prowess, or collapsing because they couldn’t keep pissing off everyone in the region and getting away with it, we could have the same relationship with them as we have with Israel now, only without the rest of the ME screaming that we’re allied with infidels (and no, Iran wouldn’t be the only country we’d be close allies with so as to prevent the cries of “the other ME will hate us cause of our alliance with Iran” arguments)
What, exactly, is your objection if the US drops Israel as a close relationship and tries to cultivate one with a different ME country anyways?
