What's American interest in alliance with Israel?

Great Debates
81

Lots of countries have internal divisions. Iran’s divisions might be more of a chasm than a crack, but I believe that moderation through cultural and economic ties happen. What are the alternatives? Sanctioning them so that the rulers passes down the economic hit to the people, the ones who actually like the West? That could work, I do believe in sanctions, but sometimes its unpredictably long-term. We would have better results if we embraced them and tried to change them as partners instead of antagonists

Well its certainly not by supporting a country that most of them hate. That’s your plan I guess?

“No, you” isn’t an argument for you either

Other than attacking our ally Israel, what is this “potential enemies” thing you speak of? Has Iran made serious threats to the US homeland? Other than Israel, has Iran ever threatened our other protectorates? Does Iran hate Puerto Rico? Has Iran ever made serious threats that doesn’t have to do with Israel?

Geez, you can be so snarky when you think you’ve made a good point. :rolleyes: Yes yes, we all know about the other countries the US deals with. I’ve mentioned it before, I know about Saudia Arabia, Turkey, etc. The point is that pretty much all of them dislikes or hates Israel. The point is that we get oil from the others and headaches from Israel. The point is that if you make a list of all of the stuff we get from every ME country ranked from most to least, there’s going to be one country at the bottom. I think its Israel, therefore we should drop them as an ally because they are really not helping us much. If this natural gas thing someone mentioned becomes a reality, and if it’ll be more beneficial to buy it from them and absorb the blowback from the other ME countries, then we should do it. But not right now.

The only thing that’s absurd is your assumption that even if given 50 years, there’s no way the US can ever improve upon its relationship with some of the other ME countries, or that dropping Israel like a hot potato wouldn’t do something to improve our image in their eyes

That could happen, its a possibility. What WILL happen, however, is that if our policy remains unchanged, in 50 years we will still be pissing off Iran for supporting Israel. My plan would at least negate what we know will happen, rather than take a fatalistic view like you have and just throw up our hands and say they’ll always hate us and that is the norm. You have no interest in improving our relationship with Iran, why? What god awful assumptions must you be making about Iranians to think that these peoples’ minds couldn’t be changed in 50 years?

Sorry, MORE of an ally to Turkey. And it doesn’t matter if we’re a formal ally of Israel just as it doesn’t matter if they formally don’t have nukes. What’s funny is that you seem to be taking everyone at their word when it comes to international relations. And I’d suspect that we protected Kuwait’s oil more than we protected Kuwait itself, and we sell plenty of American bullets and bombs to Israel to call it an ally (seriously, have you looked at the news? Which politicians are bending over backwards to assure Iran’s president versus Netanyahu?)

What you really should do, that I suspect you can’t which is why you’re ignoring it, is to list what we get out of Israel now and what we can potentially get out of unallying ourselves with them and throwing our support behind everyone else in the ME. With one ally, we get decades of headaches, potential war and conflict, and potential disruption to our elections. With another set of allies, all of those problems are gone (or are internal so its none of our business), and we get cheaper oil to boot! Its a no brainer

82

The problem, as noted above, is that by supporting a particular government, the US gets tarred by association (you know, the very problem you are complaining about with Israel). The foundation of Iranian dislike of the US is the US support for the previous government, that of the Shah. Supporting the current government would, one would think, risk the same results, right?

You do realize “most of them hate” Iran, don’t you?

What benefits does supporting a bunch of thuggish theocrats (who BTW hate and have attacked the US), who are cordially hated by all of their neighbours, have - considering you wish to withdraw support from Israel because they are hated?

Your position makes no kind of sense.

Good thing I’m not making that argument, then.

Sure. Iran would very much like to absorb bits of Iraq, which is one of the US “protectorates”. They threaten to close off the gulf, which is the source of much US oil. So, they are a threat - having nothing whatsoever to do with Israel.

Note that Iran’s threat in January was aimed at the EU - hardly a friend of Israel.

And

Really? Then you don’t know very much, and much of what you do know is incorrect.

Imports, US (all figures in millions of US dollars)

Israel:

Imports, 2011: 23,039.3

Iran:

[Hardly fair, as they are under sanction]

Imports, 2011: 1.0

Iraq:

Imports, 2011: 16,959.8

Turkey:

Imports, 2011: 5,219.5

Egypt:

Imports, 2011: 2,058.6

Jordan:

Imports, 2011: 1,060.5

Syria:

Imports, 2011: 393.2

Saudi Arabia:

Imports, 2011: 47,476.3

Lebanon:

Imports, 2011: 79.3

I’ve left out a bunch of emirates. But the picture is pretty clear: Israel is a major trading partner in the regoin - above and beyond the most important, save Saudi Arabia, which is (surprisingly!) only twice as significant.

In short, you are simply wrong. Factually wrong. In the ME, going purely by current economic value to the US in terms of dollar value of imports, Israel would rate second; and Saudi Arabian oil is only twice as valuable.

83

I was under the assumption that there is enough seething rivalry and resentment among other states in the ME that it would be impossible for the U.S. to “throw support behind everyone”. For instance, telling the Saudis “We luv ya, but we luv the Iranians too” is not going to go over so well.

84

So once someone tells you why they are suspicious of Nigerian businessmen, and then you remind that person of Bernie madoff and wonder what it is about Nigeria that makes you pick on the Nigerian scam artist, you are begging the question.

Brazil84 is one. All from same thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14306579&postcount=254

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14307373&postcount=278

85

A question which has numerous answers (including but not limited to someone being bigoted against Nigerians and not blacks) and which you not only keep insisting has only one, but one that you’re claiming you’ve tacitly been accused of to boot. I’ll again point out that you and those who make similar claims about me are the only people, in the entire known universe, who’d describe my debating style as something that amounts to ‘coy’, with a straight face.

Other folks would understand that if you haven’t been called an anti-Semite, then you haven’t been called one. And as I can call arguments anti-Semitic all I want in GD, the idea that I really think your argument is anti-Semitic but I just don’t say so, is an absurdity. Especially since, in your case in specific, I’ve clarified repeatedly what exactly I’ve accused you of, and why. Your continued demand that I’ve really had a stealth-accusation lurking in the background is nonsensical.

86

I think that had more to do with the US installing the Shah as a puppet government than anything. We shouldn’t have done that. But even if you’re right, moderating a government through cultural and economic support isn’t the same as selling weapons to a dictator like Mubarak as he brutalizes his own people. Like it or not, Ahmadinejad was elected, maybe through some fraud, but most people see him as the president of Iran. He, and the next president, at least represents some popular coalition within Iran that would rather have us try to be friends with it than sanction or attack it. Its been noted on this board and in the media that attacking Iran would have the result of rallying people around its leaders. Attacking them is not an option

I don’t believe we’ve established as a given that Iran is any more hated than the other non-Israeli countries hate each other. So no, by supporting Iran, I don’t believe the likes of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc. would simply say they hate the US now because of our support of Iran instead of Israel. If there’s any country that is the flashpoint of much of the conversation in the ME, its Israel. Even if other countries hate each other, they would and have banded together to hate Israel just a little bit more. Add to that the fact that I don’t believe Israel contributes to our well-being, its really not that hard of a decision

Good thing I’m not either

And did they close it off? Or is it bluster, much like Ahmadinejad’s wiping Israel off the map remark? If you recall, McCain joked about bombing Iran during the last election. Based simply on that, and the fact that he’s still a senator, shouldn’t Iran view the US as existential enemies?

All threats are not the same. Bluster is not a threat. I don’t believe Iran would attack the US, just as I don’t believe they would have the gall or the suicidal tendencies to use a nuke should they get one. Iran is no threat to us except as a competing economic power in the ME. And Iran’s simply one country that threatens our allies. China threatens Taiwan all the time. They and NK have lobbed missiles into the ocean near our allies. Maybe its too late to extricate ourselves from China, they’re too big to be ignored, but it shows that we can manage competing interests in terms of military and economic goals. Sanction or punish Iran if they attack us, but in the meantime, there’s no problem if we open up normal relations with them and diplomatic ties.

As for Iran absorbing Iraq, I full expect that and think that’s just typical jockeying among countries. Doesn’t Iraq have a pro-Shiite president or PM now? They used to be great enemies back when Saddam was in power, but with a new government, of course Iran’s going to want to get some influence over its neighbor. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Alright, that’s a better picture of what we get. I didn’t know we traded that much with Israel. But like you said, Iran’s under sanctions, and the sanctions are pretty much tied to things from decades ago when we tried to rule their country with a puppet government. If we eliminated all sanctions on Iran, allow them to get their nukes without bother from us, and traded with them, I bet we can get those numbers up. Iraq was a governmentless wasteland just a few years ago and even they’ve been importing about two thirds of what Israel has been. Iran is bigger, with more resources and people. There’s no reason they should be so low if not for us trying to force a government on them. Try catching some flies with honey once in a while, I hear it works

87

If you have a baseline understanding of the region, you already know that Iran is more hated than other non-Israeli nations, to the point where other nations in the region were asking for the US or Israel to bomb Iran’s nuclear program, and saying that they’d happily look the other way in the aftermath. The idea that Iran isn’t a flashpoint for a huge amount of political action simply reveals that you lack the required knowledge to participate in a discussion like this in an informed manner.

88

What does Iran have that we want?
Oil? We can get that from any number of other countries.
Saffron? Yes, it’s valuable, but we don’t consume very much of it.
Pistachio nuts? Same as above.

Iran is just barely a “first-world” country (maybe not, by some definitions). They simply don’t have much by way of exports to interest the US.

In contrast, Israel has some of the best technology and manufacturing in the world.

Can the OP explain why we should be on good terms with a fundamentalist, anti-western-values country that has little to offer besides oil?

89

It totally can be done. Right now, we’re friends with both the Saudis and Israelis. If we can do that, of course we can throw our support behind most of the other non-Israel countries.

90

Only if you ignore key differences in order to make a fallacious analogy.
While the Saudis are certainly politically and economically powerful, Khomenism is a different animal and has consistently been viewed as a serious threat by Arab powers. That Iran has backed up the spread of Khomenism by force via Hezbollah puts it on quite another level as well; while many governments use Israel as an escape valve for internal discontent, the Arab states also showed behind closed doors (as evinced by Wikileaks) that they were more than willing to cooperate with Israel clandestinely if Iran was the target.

The idea that we could throw our support behind the most polarizing, destabilizing regime in the region and that would improve things is ignorant, Pollyanna pipe-dreaming.

If your purpose is to enrich the Middle East and not just try to find rationalizations for pulling support for Israel, then you’d do far better to supporting the US’ working towards the free flow of information in Iran via spec ops forces ferrying in satellite modems (or what have you). The idea that we could publicly support the regime that’s the current cause of something like a dozen Arab nations seeking nuclear technology and not bring about instability and chaos? It’s not half baked. It’s not even batter yet. It’s proto-idea goop.

91

[QUOTE=YogSosoth]
It totally can be done. Right now, we’re friends with both the Saudis and Israelis. If we can do that, of course we can throw our support behind most of the other non-Israel countries.
[/QUOTE]

So, your contention is that if we can be ‘friends’ with the Saudis and with Israel, we could equally be friends with the Saudis and Iran as well? And all that will take is to dump Israel and make the effort?? :confused:

92

– bolding mine.

Hilarious post. Thanks for the laughs. :smiley:

93

I’ve already explained that oil is a global commodity. Having an oil-rich ally doesn’t matter very much, except possibly during a war, and in that case, we have other sources.

94

Going along with the old Arab proverb “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”…is it conceivable that SA might ally itself with Israel? Suppose Iran threatens the Saudis-would SA grant Israel overflight rights to attack Iran?

95

What do you mean by “Khomenism”?

Hezbollah, while supported by Iran, does not strive towards the establishment of a Khomeini-style theocratic dictatorship (Vilayat-e Faqih).

96

The same things that’s pretty much always meant by it.

97

In that case, you’re wrong in claiming that Iran is “back[ing] up the spread” of Khomeinism “by force via Hezbollah”, seeing how (as I said above) Hezbollah does not strive towards the establishment of a Khomeini-style theocratic dictatorship (Vilayat-e Faqih).

98

The USA should stop all aid to all nations in the Middle East, including Israel. And to all other nations across the globe - you have a raging deficit, it’s absurd to borrow money from China to give them some third nation. But at least Israel doesn’t repay support with hatred and enmity, as do all the other nations of the Middle East. Israel also has a very healthy business community with many innovative start ups which I’m sure the USA draws great benefit from, so that the close connection between the two countries might be a net profit for the USA. When was the last time anyone heard of anything new (that we like) coming out of any of the other nations of the Middle East?

99

Either that or I’m aware of the basic facts of the issue. And you are not.
That’s generally a pretty safe bet in these sorts of threads, and it’s a winning bet this time, too. Hezbollah’s founding document officially stated that it was a Khomenist organization.

[

](http://web.archive.org/web/20060821215729/http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm)

Even with its newest political manifesto, Nashrallah made clear that Hezbollah’s Khomenism wasn’t subject to review.
Of course, I suppose I could also point out where you switched my correct statement “Iran has backed up the spread of Khomenism by force via Hezbollah” with your strawman that “Iran is backing up the spread of Khomeinism by force via Hezbollah”.

Meanwhile, your claim that Hezbollah does not want to establish a theocracy is also fictitious. They only dropped overt demands for an Islamic Republic in Lebanon three years ago. And even then:

So you are quite literally wrong about every single thing you just said.

100

Those who advocate dropping Israel and embracing the “other ME states” should perhaps be aware of what those “other ME states” really think of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Wikileaks helped recently with that.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-11-29/news/ct-edit-wiki-20101129_1_iran-s-arab-nuclear-program-diplomats

To support Iran’s nuclear ambitions would be to seriously damage relations with current US allies of the oil-producing variety. How does that make sense?