OK…I know the Palestinian’s and the Isreali’s are shooting each other up like there’s no tomorrow but what’s the big picture? Why are they doing this? I heard a lot of trouble in the Middle East over the years has been over specific pieces of land with different groups saying it’s their “holy land”.
I hate to sound uninformed about current events but…I’m uninformed about current events! Don’t need any essays about it. If you can explain in 1 or 2 paragraphs that’s good enough for me.
Thanks.
Read this thread. There is a tremendous amount of info on the situation in there.\
Sadly, nothing new. When you consider that several of the world’s major religions have come from this small geographical area the only amazing thing is that there have not been any nuclear arms used yet.
Try to remember that for decades Arab country maps did not even show Israel. To fly to Israel from Egypt, you used to have to fly to Rome and catch a connecting flight back to Tel Aviv. It is tragic that shortsightedness and religious intolerance has become the order of the day. It seems almost insane that the Qaran instructs its followers to respect the Christians and Jews as “people of the book” (namely that their own individual doctrines are to be recognized). The contradictions are not limited to Islam. I have personally attended Christian services where Muslims are denounced as intolerant of Christianity (heavy on the irony sauce). The preacher was almost indigniant when I pointed out the “people of the book” tradition to him.
The insanity will never stop until people realize that we are inextricably bound to each other by the need to live together on the same planet.
To paraphrase Ayn Rand:
“Underneath the skin all of humanity are brothers. And I’d skin humanity alive to prove it!”
It’s easy. Both the Arabs and Israeli’s claim the land, going back over 3000 years easy. What with wars, conquests, invasions and the like, it’s hard to say who has an easy claim on it. To make matters even worse, so to speak, the three major religions of the world originated there. Jews and Muslims both claim the same ancestor, Abraham. Christianty can trace it’s roots to him as well, with Joseph being a direct decendant of David, King of Israel.
All those religions have Major shrines there… It’s a mess. To top it off, both sides have a “All or nothing” approach to the problem. Israeli’s and Palestian’s kill each other freely, and don’t consider sharing at all. Both sides have committed some serious crimes in that cities history. Most of the Christians living in the city have been run out, with barely 12K left in 1995.
Solving this problem will not be easy. And nuking the city would simply make a ton of people angry at you…
I wonder if it is a religious issue that is driving the violence. To mee it seems mostly like a land/tribal issue.
Late last century the Zionist movement was founded. Its goal was the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of Zionist colonies were thus founded there. At the start of the Zionist colonization of Palestine, the inhabitants were Arab peasants. Most of the population were Moslem, but in the urban areas there were some groups of Arab Christians.
In WWI the British and the Arabs collaborated to take Palestine from the Turks. The British, in a leadership role, promised Zionist leaders to help in the establishment of a Jewish “national home” in Palestine, with regard for the rights of non-Jewish people. However, the British had also promised the Arab leaders who had assisted them against the Turks to support the creation of independent Arab statesin Palestine. The British couldn’t fulfil both promises.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and only 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The British then encouraged Jewish migration to the area; the Jewish population then increased rapidly (also due to the rise of Nazism in Europe). There have been problems ever since. The Palestinians feel that their land has been illegally and immorally snatched from them with the consensus of Great Britain, and the (later) support of the USA. The other Arab states are outraged. The Israelis have held tenaciously on to their new land, sometimes even adding to the portions of Palestine under their control and destroying the homes of Arab settlers. In general, the Palestinians are dispossessed, the Israelis are much wealthier, and the Arab world is reluctant to intervene since the US threatened to take action against Egypt in the Egyptian-Israeli war.
It’s a complicated mess. What is going on now is hardline behaviour on behalf of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. Barak is the first Israeli leader who has ever offered to return significant portions of Israeli occupied lands to the Palestinians. Unfortunately, some moronic Palestinian militant movements insist on all or nothing (meaning Jerusalem must be returned as well). Barak himself does not always have the support of the whole Israeli government. Arafat (it has been opined) started the recent spate of violence in the hope of putting pressure on the Israelis to give up Jerusalem, but the violence quickly escalated beyond his control. The Israelis retaliated using ample force (tanks, gunships, and missiles against peasants).
In other words, the idiocy on both sides of the issue for the last 100+ years has demolished what little hope there seemed to be of a peaceful resolution. In recent years the USA has slightly withdrawn some of the direct support it was giving Israel, and the Arab world does not intend to tolerate more of what they perceive as crimes against Arabs. I hope for everyone’s sake that open war does not happen, but it is such a volatile situation that you never know. Especially since it is rumoured that Egypt has some of the largest weapons stocks in the world, and Syria/Lebanon would like to see the end of the Israeli problem.
Red, you can see a decent summary of the last 100 years at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/mideast/story/overview/. It’s only “in-depth” by TV standards, but I get the feeling you don’t want to read a book. Also, the interactive map is a pretty good visual aid in seeing why Israel feels so cornered and why Palestinians are feeling rather trampled.
Abe, I’m no expert but is Egypt really that much of a threat? They’re one of two countries that actually signed a treaty with Israel. I know that doesn’t count for much when your population is really really pissed off, but Israel did given them back the Sinai.
As for the weapons, I doubt anything Egypt stockpiled could compete with what the US has been selling/giving to Israel in the last forty years. They have Apache helicopters, F-16 fighters, guided cruide missles, M-class tanks. Unless the Egyptians have been stockpiling something more than rusty AK-47s and mortars, a fight would probably resemble the Gulf War. Isn’t that why they won the Six-Day War so handily despite being outnumbered?
Abe, you painted a great picture of what’s going on in the middle east. I had several people who were totally confused about what was going on, and your post was a good summary. I don’t have the energy to explain the middle east anymore, so I might cut ‘n’ paste your explanation and send it to others who are confused.
Karellen does make a good point about Egypt. I am under the general impression that Israel could mop them all up at will, and in short time. I understand that Israel has demonstrated this over the years. Certainly, war is ugly, and if I were in Israel, I wouldn’t be as confident in the “mop up” theory as I can be here in the US.
I don’t want to get into counting planes and weapons, because that has proved of little value in recent conflicts. Certainly we have learned that the quality of the miltary and the quality of the weapons is what matters most. I think there is general consensus that Israel gets a firm nod in terms of an effective military, especially air forces.
That leads to a big fear for many countries, especially the US. That is, what if Israel decided to anihilate their foes? Well, as much as the US wants a well armed and well protected Israel, it also doesn’t want an offensive Israeli war machine blowing away Palestinians and other takers.
The long term risks are many.
I think the US would be happy to have a stand-off that never seems to be pushed to a higher resolution.
*Originally posted by Abe *
The British, in a leadership role, promised Zionist leaders to help in the establishment of a Jewish “national home” in Palestine, with regard for the rights of non-Jewish people. However, the British had also promised the Arab leaders who had assisted them against the Turks to support the creation of independent Arab statesin Palestine. The British couldn’t fulfil both promises.
Nice summary, Abe. However, I was under the impression that the British supported the establishment of a Jewish homeland, but not explicitly in Palestine. I do know that the British offered alternative locations (e.g. - Uganda) as possbile homelands for Jews. My understanding was that the leaders of the Zionist movement rejected any offers of territory other than Palestine. Did the British then offer their support for a homeland in Palestine? Just curious as to the specifics of British support (i. e. Balfour Declaration).
Personally, I think Israel has to shoulder a fair proportion of blame for the current state of affairs. It must effect greater control over the Jewish settlers who are perpetually causing friction with the Palestinian population. Constant land grabs just smack of latter-day colonialism, and are counterproductive to the official peace process.
When is the West going to get tough with Israel? The only nations who openly criticise Israel are Arab states, even when Israeli citizens are clearly the culprits in many instances. Is it because of the large Jewish voting block in the US?
Clearly, the softly, softly approach is going nowhere. Maybe some sterner measures are needed, such as economic sanctions, withdrawal of diplomatic relations, etc.
Thoughts?
well…I admit I don’t really understand the conflict myself, but, I believe that we should admit we(americans)can’t solve it. I say we sell both side some american economy boosting high tech weapons, let them fight until one side admits defeat, and be done with it.
Blaming this on the settlers is completely one-sided. They are only one half of the equation - the right-wing Israeli’s. Compare what they do (merely maintain a presence in a hostile place) to what the right-wing Palestinians do (shoot at the settlers, as they have been doing lately).
The summaries below leave out the most important element: security for Israel. When your neighbors all hate you, and have attacked you many times before, maintaining the West Bank etc becomes a matter of survival. If Israel could know for sure that there would be no more future attacks, they would more readily give up the territories. Of course, the Palestinians could care less about Israel’s survival. Some actively want to destroy Israel, but even those that don’t want that, want their state regardless of how it affects Israel.
I think what will have to happen is that Israel will have to give up the terroties, and thus, their security. But no problem - there is a backup plan. Remember, Israel has nuclear weapons. Their deterrent must then be strictly nuclear. Not exactly something that will make people sleep easier at nights…
Oops. The summaries above. They were below when I wrote it. I don’t pretend to know what people will write in the future.
I do. I predict that people will stop posting their opinions about the Middle East in this thread, and return to the history discussion.
It is true that Egypt is probably one of the more level-headed countries when it comes to the Palestine problem, and they have been active in attempting to promote peace. I have no idea what sort of weapons they are rumoured to be stockpiling (or even if the rumour is true). In my opinion Egypt would be one of the last countries to strike at Israel. As was pointed out, they got the Sinai back, and they were actually engaged in a full-scale war with Israel. That taught them the lesson that War is Hell, something that raging peasants (Palestinians and Jewish) armed with rifles do not understand yet. Those people still have to progress past the blood feud and religious fervor stage.
Although Israel has probably the finest military force in the world and some very advanced technology, they are in a region that is brimming over with anger. They are vastly outnumbered. Against only one country, it is foreseeable that Israel would not do too badly; but if a number of Arab countries decide to take action, all hell will break loose.
Said that, I don’t think that it will come to war. War requires a major commitment on the part of all sides involved. The Israeli politicians don’t want war, and the Arab politicians don’t want war. The effects of this ugliness will manifest themselves in other ways, primarily terrorism. I read in Dow Jones News that Indonesia’s anti-American sentiment is flaring up as a result of the Middle-East conflicts. Americans, traditionally allies of Israel, are not always welcome in indonesia, and the American embassy in Jakarta will be closed for a few days in protest.
So letting the two sides slug it out in war is hardly the answer. There is no guarantee that there will be a victor, and there is absolutely no guarantee at all whatsoever that if a side does emerge victorious, it will have wisdom on its side. It is the duty of the International community to quit their pathetic “Pick and Choose” intervention philosophy and start acting for the good of all humankind.
I will add that blaming this mess on one side only is unwise, exactly as it was unwise of NATO to do so in the Kosovo Crisis. Jews kill Palestinians and Palestinians kill Jews, so right there you have a long-standing blood feud. Both sides will not accept anything less than Jerusalem, and there you have an insurmountable territorial dispute. Religion adds more friction by further “tribalizing” the two groups involved, and that necessarily means tribal conflict.
There’s enough violence in the equation already, and I think we’ve seen quite enough of mob mentality. As someone once said (sorry, I can’t remember who), to find out the average intelligence of a mob you take the IQ of its smartest member and divide it by the number of people in the mob.
I suggest that you view much of this with a huge lump of salt firmly in cheek.
Negotiation and business and life in the Mideast is a matter of haggling. “If I lowered my price any further, my children will starve.” Much of what is going on, now and always, is posturing, haggling, trying to eek out another advantage.
Unfortunately, the posturing on the part of Arafat had led to loss of human life – mostly Palestinian. And he went too far: when the buyer walks out of the store, the would-be seller has to lure him back. Arafat went too far and Barak walked out of the store; Arafat can’t go running after him, but watch and see what the next few weeks will bring.
The peace process may take a different direction, but it will continue. The economic advantage to both sides is overwhelming. It’s just that the Mideast is NOT America, although the Western media tends to treat the situation as if it were. I think there have been about 400 times in the last three years that U.S. news headlines have proclaimed that the peace process is dead.
If they can’t make up their minds who’s going to have to land, why not just bomb the hell out of the lot of them…and whichever country took the time, $ and effort to do it, has what’s left of it!!
wish they’d jurry up and work out whatever they’re going to do…before our illustrious PM in John Howard decides to tear the Health and Education budgets to shreds by deploying troops on a “peacekeeping” mission! (Again) I think that’d make about the 3rd or 4th one for this year! What is he…some sorta teddy-bear policeman?