I was not advocating the transfer of anyone’s way of living, just the comparison between the two.
The thing is, you’re comparing the lives of 6 million people to the lives of 6 billion. That’s like comparing the simplicity of the relationships between 3 people to the complexity of 3000 - of course it’s better. It’s also completely moot.
moot how?
Well, let’s load our questions yet again then, shall we? The question is not, “How should everyone in the world live?” but “Which are better off, us or them?”
Not everyone can live like hunter-gatherers. Not everyone can be millionares, too. I mean, who is saying otherwise?
But we’re not talking about the benefits of being civilized; we’re talking about the benefits of civilization. Those are two different things.
Here’s the thing. Humans evolved in a hunter-gatherer context. I have no doubt that your average hunter-gatherer had a better life than your average farmer, or your average industrial worker, or your average office worker.
I think that archeological evidence shows that health declined dramatically with the introduction of agriculture, for various reasons. And our health and lifespan have only now, in the last century, rebounded to what they used to be. Hunter-gatherers had a huge advantage in that they lived in groups too small to support infectious diseases. And hunter-gatherers typically have much better and more varied diets.
So…why did people give up hunting and gathering and become farmers? Because farming increases population density. And a dense community of farmers can support professional fighters. When 100 professional fighters face 10 hunter-gatherers, the agricultural society is going to prevail.
erislover
I’m talking general terms, here. Lets face it all of these things are available to the citizen even if he or she can not afford it. We do not deny basic health care education or communication to our people (In Canada we have a universal health care which covers all)
As far as Quality of life, it would seem to me that even the poorest member of civilization has more available to them than a hunter gatherer. If a member of a Civilization falls behind there are institutions which can help them.
In a hunter Gatherer society nothing is guaranteed for them, in fact if they fail they are in a worse state. They have less storage than a civilization.
For example if a member becomes too sick or old to produce we try to look after them, in a hunter gatherer tribe they are sent away.
As far as happiness goes, I think the civilization is an attempt to perfect happiness.
Remember humans are lazy creatures and Innovation is our way to make less physical work for ourselves.
You do, of course, have a cite for that?
Hmmm…Yep, I can see that.
[Colonial]Come back here, you savages! We only want to civilize you so you can be happy.[/Colonial]
So?
And my quality of life remains constant whether I fail or succeed? Why were there riots in France over lack of work? Why are there homeless people in America?
So? There is less to store.
I genuinely do not feel that way. I feel like civilization is an attempt to take the man out of me and replace it with a slave. Slave to the state, to the corporation, to whatever God is popular… That is how I feel. No one cares about me. I’m lucky if a guy looks me in the eye as I walk down the street. I am not a valued part of the machine, I am an unfortunate necessity.
I remember, alright. That is why I do not appreciate working 10 hours a day (including driving time to work and back) and still having trouble accounting for simple pleasures that are supposedly so plenty.
I don’t see them.
Don’t worry, tribal societies have outcasts, too.
They rarely live long.
My son visited the Evenk, a little over 10 years ago. I remember that he complained that in order to be friendly he had to eat some raw meat with them. He also brought back a couple of articles which displayed some beautiful artwork. He got there by a Russian helicopter that was delivering supplies.
Native Americans fit this mould pretty good. Problem came when the old world showed up. It was more the diseases they carried (and to a large extent had built up immunity too) more than the relatively modern weapons they wielded that wiped out the local crowd. Read Diamond’s Guns Germs and Steel which covers this very well–he even gets into quality of life and such.
You could make the argument (I am neither ready nor willing to back this up mind you) that the “primitive” crowd was also healthier because they lived (and died) with a far more prevalent Darwinian effect. Now (in “more advanced” societies) if you are born with, say, a genetic heart defect we do a lot to try to fix it so you are free to pass it on to the next generation. The same could be said for everything from poor eyesight to club feet.
That’s what the leader of the Tongo thought of me too. Now look where his head is.
It would be nice if someone could define civilization. Pollution, war, rape, murder, etc. the list goes on. True we do not all commit those crimes, but we walk over each other on a daily basis. All we are is another form of barbarism. I, too, live in this ‘civilization’ and take the ‘advantages’ that come with it, but I would not delude myself that there is anything great about it. Maybe in a few thousand years we will have earned the right to say we are civilized.
Maybe the point is that those people in Siberia are content in a way that we could never be. They don’t worry about keeping up with the Jones next door.
[Slight Tangent]
Question:
Are men first born virtuous and true and later corrupted by the evils of society, or are men born nasty and evil and later ‘tamed’ by the goodness of society?
Which side do you believe has the greatest validity?
Sorry for the minor hi-jack
[/slight tangent]
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by erislover *
** I feel like civilization is an attempt to take the man out of me and replace it with a slave. Slave to the state, to the corporation, to whatever God is popular… That is how I feel. No one cares about me. I’m lucky if a guy looks me in the eye as I walk down the street. I am not a valued part of the machine, I am an unfortunate necessity*
Fine and dandy however, I’m many people don’t feel that way. I’m sure subsistance living may seem romantic but I’ll take the creature comforts civilation offers me. If I want to live off the land I will go camping for a week and then return to my hot shower air conditioned home and eat my processed foods infront of my television where i can catch up on the weeks events. You know what I’m pretty happy with that.
I’m not sure what your exact job is so this is not a comment on your work, but I laugh whenever anyone bitches about how hard they work these days. Unless you are doing hard physical labour for 8 to 10 hours a day I have no sympathy.
Those people sitting a desk moaning about how they are doing the hardest job in the world really should spend a year out in the wilderness trying to scratch out a living, I’ll bet that job will seem pretty cushy when they get back.
Lets face it you and I can miss a day even two weeks of work and things will be fine a hunter gatherer misses too many days people starve. Or worse, die.
Much of modern stress, like deadlines, traffic, over working, seems to me to be self imposed. You can set your sites lower take a job within walking distance, or one that you can enjoy rather than stress yourself out.
The Stress of a hunter gatherer society is more realistic due to the life and death nature and outside influences.
When You speak about Siberia, Siberia You get. (Even if I am now living a little bit westward).
Quote:
"They are the Evenk."
Could also be Tsuhtsceh.
Quote:
"What is so great about working 40+ hours a week"
Yeah, I work about 15 hours a day. The rest of my time I am hanging around in the Net. Checking chicks in the neighbourhood, making video-films, learning languages, etc. (Learned Norwegian some 700 km from Ural, my 5th laguage)
Quote:
"Gor-tex clothing, and Mag-Lite flashlights ", I buy through Moscow.
Quote:
"I imagin if they had computers they would come beat you up for calling them uncivilized!"
We have computers, You moron;), and also my friends have. We study a lot with them. Playing games is absolutely out!
(Except for “Capitalism”, because the spoken English in this game is excellent!)
Alright, now I speak about Siberia, which is btw. about the same size as USA. Just check Your maps. It is from north to the Mongolian border. There in the Middle- and South-Siberia, the winter is about - 35 degreees Celcius and in summertime + 35 degrees (-31 to 95 Farenheit).
Quote:
"Microwaves and television make me happy"
Have You ever heard of a satellite antenna, or that any river in Siberia can give You electricity as much as You ever like.
A dam has not to be over the whole river, just a small dam on the side of it.
Quote:
"And my quality of life remains constant whether I fail or succeed? Why were there riots in France over lack of work? Why are there homeless people in America?"
Or Europe?, or Russia? Beats me.
Quote:
"They have less storage than a civilization."
Not true.
Quote:
"Don’t worry, tribal societies have outcasts, too.
They rarely live long."
Mostly not true.
Quote: (much shortened. My comments about Siberia in brackets).
"Civilization (versus Siberia)
Pros
Medicine and large medical infrastructure
(There is usually enough of medicine).
Higher Degree of Sanitation (Depend how You build).
Quality control on foods (You can control Your own food, better than the bribed guys or those who are “just checking my part”)
Larger supply of food to cover times of shortage
(Not necceserily)
Education system to keep and gather knowledge can improve both practical and theoretical knowledge leading to expectation of advancement
(Through the Net You can get almost anything)
Written language allowing for better record keeping
(Yeah!)
Sophisticated Communication system (Available)
Manufacturing of better quality goods and tools (Can mostly be bought, if You find it in the Net)
Ability to support growing population
(No change, there will be a limit, but huge)
Week Ends and Holidays
(Kidding?)
Ability to travel farther due to roads and vehicles
(No Disneyland, that is true).
Tribal
Pros
Shorter work day (average 4 hrs)
Closer ties to family and community (required for survival of the group)
Better memory (Oral tradition passed on)
More active lifestyle (less likely to suffer from weight related illness)
Better understanding of immediate environment
Smaller group to support
I know You guys are speaking of some kind of hunting guys in Sibiria. But the truth is, that no film team would be interested in the 98% (OK maybe 95%) that are living a “normal life” in Siberia.
(We are btw hanging inside the Russian InterNet, that’s why You guys almost never hear about us.)
Think that You would move to Canada, with a (Siberian) winter climate as I have described. The summer climate would be like in Kansas? Chicago?
You would buy a square mile there. It would cost You maybe one months salary. There is electricity and roads nearby.
You would have trees and logs as much as You never need.
Here are forests that You can cut for free. Unfortunately there is no roads to these deeper forests.
Electricity You can get wherever there is flowing water.
Here is growing 6 cbm wood on every hectare. The Russians cut 1 cbm in average per hectare.
I lived some 700 km from Ural. It was a small town of 7.000 citizens. I had a 2 room + kitchen + sauna + garden.
I paid 8 USD in rent per month! (My average salary was about 1.000 USD/month).
OK, back to Canada: You need electricity, windows, water-pipes and other stuff You can not produce by Yourself.
Your family is building together with You.
Everything You put into earth grows unbelieveble fast. (In Middle and Southern parts of Siberia anyhow).
You have food as much as You ever wanted.
You can buy medicine for Your needs.
You can buy a Kalashnikov if You are afraid of the bears.
The fishing is incredible!
Then what makes You happy?; InterNet, computer, printer, Satellite antenna+TV, video-camera, everything in music, including a grand piano.
Every year You can build one room more, so that You will have space.
Add how much this all costs, if You make the money in Europe or USA?
Peanuts, if You do have the money and do not need to buy the food You grow by Yourself, no rent, no car, no gasoline.
Just write, make films, play music and give a shit about the fact that aunt Eulalia strikes Your name out of her testamente, because You are never visiting her!
So how do I live? I saw birch with the local guys, then we export it to some factory in some city, where some idiot is working his ass off to get new furniture or a parquet floor.
Go and look how much a parquet floor costs in USA/Canada, and You will understand that there is something wrong.
Quote:
"Maybe the point is that those people in Siberia are content in a way that we could never be. They don’t worry about keeping up with the Jones next door."
I will begin to make a house by my own within two years. To be frank, I originally came here and thought I make a bunch of money and run home.
But now I think differently.
One lack that here is: The post does not work; which means that everything is paid cash, even the InterNet I pay beforehand; no bills, never!!!
I hope Your civilization, (my old civilization), never comes here.
I’m sure there are a few brokers in London & New York who’d like to.
Good luck to you, Henry B
See Henry B loves all the advantages that Civilization brings,
currency, computers, and Kalashnikovs.
He’s happier with them!
My jeetha (great-grandfather) emigrated from Georgia to Pennsylvania and he used sledges, stone boats, a wagon and a sleigh in Pennsylvania. Are horses expensive in Siberia?
How much electricity, realistically, does one really need, anyway? Enough for the computer, stereo, and VCR. I’m perfectly happy with kerosene lamps or candlelight and I do know how to cook on a wood stove.
I want! I want! You’re making me drool, Henry 
I’m ready to emigrate to Siberia now! I’m not being all that facetious, either; life in the US has become steadily worse for the working class. My parents both lived without electricity and running water for much of their lives and lived off the land as much as possible. I grew up with the idea that I would have a little farm and my husband and I would build our own house. I think because of the way I was raised, I’m comfortable with much less than a lot of Americans are.